Umich has #1 wealthiest student body in public universities

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

Smart, affluent Californians are not choosing Michigan over the top UC schools because of academic reputation. As Alexandre notes, Berkeley has an equal or better reputation than Michigan. UCLA, UCSD, UCSB are all fine institutions a Californian can go to for less than half the price of Michigan. Despite this, Michigan enrolls hundreds of Californians each year, with most being unhooked, full pay students. My daughter has a friend in her dorm from the San Diego area, who chose Michigan over UCLA because her family could afford the OOS tuition, and she wanted to go to a school with strong academics, with top level sports/school spirit, in a different part of the country. Michigan fit the bill.

Henry Gunn High School in Palo Alto is one of the top public high schools in the country and provides anecdotal support for this trend. The Gunn HS class of 2016 had about 460 students, of which 104 were National Merit Commended and 46 National Merit Semifinalists. Palo Alto is a very affluent community, so many families are not limited to UC options. In 2016, per naviance, 51 Gunn students were admitted to Cal Berkeley but only 22 enrolled. 69 admitted to UCSD, only 9 enrolled. 38 were admitted to UCLA, only 4 enrolled. In contrast, 46 Gunn students were admitted to Michigan, and 19 enrolled. The “yield” of Gunn students by Berkeley and Michigan was close to the same, even though Michigan is 2000+ miles away and much more expensive. This does not mean Michigan is any better than Cal or UCLA, but for some California families who can afford it, Michigan is the preferred choice.

22

It’s a form of consumption. Why get a BMW when a Subaru can get you there just as easily and safely at half the price? Conspicuous consumption.

23

There might be other reasons why wealthy Californians are sending their children to Michigan over the U-C’s. Perhaps overcrowding might be one of them? Also Michigan is a much wealthier school than Berkeley, et al. That might also be a consideration.

24

It’s not just the lower pricing. Arguably the radical orientation of Cal and to a lesser extent UCLA is a factor. UC ‘selectivity’ is increased by the UC app which lets students apply to all of the UC’s. Michigan’s overall yield is higher than both Cal and UCLA, and the instate yield is radically higher. I think it especially significant considering Ann Arbor’s colder weather and lack of big-city amenities.

25

I think the most evident example of the UC’s lack of appeal in California can be seen by the matriculation figures of students from California’s top private high schools to UCs vs top OOS universities:

HARVARD WESTLAKE (over the last 5 years):
University of Southern California 99
New York University 84
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor 81
Washington University-St Louis 53
Stanford University 51
Cornell University 45
Harvard University 43
University of Chicago 42
Columbia University 41
University of Pennsylvania 39
University of California-Berkeley 38
Brown University 37
Yale University 29
Emory University 28
Johns Hopkins University 27
Kenyon College 24
Duke University 23
Princeton University 23
Wesleyan University 22
Vanderbilt University 20

Even Cal does not break the top 10 destination for Harvard Westlake, and not of the other UCs make the top 20 list.
http://students.hw.com/Portals/44/profile.pdf

The College Preparatory School in Oakland, another top private school in California, has similar matriculation figures.
Swarthmore College 20
Tufts University 17
Carleton College 15
Cornell University 14
Williams College 14
Barnard College 13
University of Chicago 13
Brown University 12
Georgetown University 12
Harvard University 12
Stanford University 12
UC-Berkeley 11
Washington University-St Louis 11
Lewis and Clark College 10
New York University 10
University of Pennsylvania 10
Wesleyan University 10
Amherst College 9
Oberlin College 8
Case Western Reserve University 7
Columbia University 7
Haverford College 7
Yale University 7

Again, Cal does not break the top 10, and none of the other UCs cracks the top 20 destination list.
http://www.college-prep.org/page/academics/college-counseling

26

I still don’t understand why wealthy California families will pay double for umich than for uc Berkeley. Uc Berkeley is just as good if not better than umich and even if you are wealthy, there’s no reason to pay that much for an out of state public school if you got into uc Berkeley

27

None of this surprises me. I’m a CA parent (my D took a different route and went to a tiny LAC) and I know quite a few kids in my D’s year who are at U Michigan. There are many reasons, but when I asked one parent why, she replied, “It has everything - good academics, school spirit, sports, etc. It’s the complete package. And we don’t have to worry about this major being impacted, my D not being able to get classes like we would at a UC.” Her D didn’t even apply to UC. She applied to U Michigan and other very selective privates. They have nothing but positive things to say about UMich since she started there 1.5 years ago. I also saw a number of CA kids who did not get into U Michigan and are now attending U Wisconsin (Madison). These kids went to a mix of public and prep schools, but are full-pay for college. I do think that Michigan is perceived as better than or equal to our top state schools (UCB and UCLA) without some of the negatives we keep hearing about those two.

28

Weird out of state and international students would perceive uc Berkeley as better than umich

29

@Eeeee127, I think most perceive Berkeley as better academically than U Mich. However, as this thread notes, U Mich is surprisingly popular these days, especially in California for those with cash. Those OOS families with enough cash so that full tuition is no barrier. UMich must be courting full pay oos students to fill budget gaps. Don’t know that I blame them.

30

I don’t think people in this thread understand how UC admissions work. UC Berkeley (and UCLA) are attempting to serve the entire state, a state with a population larger than all of Canada. There are over 5500 high schools in California - nearly one for every student in the entering class at Berkeley.

The way Berkeley does this is to emphasize grades and class standing over tests. They want the overachiever kids from every corner of the state to have a chance to get in, the kids in the farmland and the kids in the ghetto and the kids in the suburbs. They want whoever did the best with the opportunities they were given. So you have to be the top of your class to get in - its doesn’t matter if you went to elite Harvard Westlake or terrible Compton High - did you take the hardest classes that were offered at your school and did you get top grades?

That is why the average SAT at UC Berkeley seems a bit low compared to other top schools. But 98% of the entering class was in the top 10 percent of their high school class- that is the highest figure in the nation, higher than Harvard. If you aren’t in the very top of your class, your SATs aren’t getting you in.

So what does that mean for this discussion? My kids attend a top private school in California, a rival of Oakland College Preparatory. There are 90-100 students in the graduating class and SAT/ACT scores are very high.

Almost zero students from my kids’ high school go to Berkeley. Why is that? It’s not because Berkeley is not desirable. It’s because the top ten students in the class are the only ones who can get admitted to Berkeley, despite their SAT scores. And the top ten students in the class invariably go to Stanford, Yale, Chicago, MIT, Amherst etc. They are the only ones who get in to Berkeley, but they have the option to go to top 10 schools (and most of them have the money to pay that tuition). They aren’t going to Michigan either.

My kids high school actually sends more students to UMichigan than to UC Berkeley. That is because UMichigan is a target school for the middle of this high school class, who are all very good students with high SATs who are entirely shut out of UC Berkeley. They are going to Michigan and Wash U and Cornell and NYU because they are FAR EASIER to get into than Berkeley for these students.

The same thing undoubtedly is true at Oakland College Prep and Harvard Westlake and the other top California private prep schools. The point is, this is not because Berkeley is less appealing than Michigan to these students. It is because Berkeley is not available to almost all of them.

one final point - I am not biased in favor of Berkeley in this discussion. I actually attended Michigan for grad school, and I love that place. But I think it’s important to set the record straight. The statistics in @Alexandre’s post are incredibly misleading.

31

@Alexandre said “When you have public universities like Cal and UCLA, there is no excuse for so many top students defecting to peer OOS institutions. Like I said, even when you factor in the difference in population (CA is four times more populous than MI), CA residents at all those universities outnumber Michigan students by a hefty margin. That is not an indication of quality. Cal is at least as good as Michigan, if not better. UCLA is as good as Michigan too. But there are subtle differences that makes California’s wealthier families lean more toward schools like Michigan and its private peers.”

These wealthy families are not “defecting” because of “subtle differences.” They are going to out of state schools because they can’t get into Berkeley - but they can easily get into peer out of state flagships like Michigan where a high SAT score means more in the admissions process at other schools. These high SAT kids who aren’t top ten in the class can more easily get into Cornell and Wash U and Notre Dame and Vanderbilt and Georgetown and Tufts and Wesleyan and Barnard than they can get into Berkeley - so that’s what they do. And the ones who can get into Berkeley are going to Stanford and Harvard instead.

32

@dtrain1027 said “The Gunn HS class of 2016 had about 460 students, of which 104 were National Merit Commended and 46 National Merit Semifinalists. Palo Alto is a very affluent community, so many families are not limited to UC options. In 2016, per naviance, 51 Gunn students were admitted to Cal Berkeley but only 22 enrolled. 69 admitted to UCSD, only 9 enrolled. 38 were admitted to UCLA, only 4 enrolled. In contrast, 46 Gunn students were admitted to Michigan, and 19 enrolled. The “yield” of Gunn students by Berkeley and Michigan was close to the same, even though Michigan is 2000+ miles away and much more expensive. This does not mean Michigan is any better than Cal or UCLA, but for some California families who can afford it, Michigan is the preferred choice.”

Nope. This isn’t accurate because they are NOT the same students. Of the 51 kids admitted to Berkeley (roughtly the top ten percent of the Gunn class), only 22 went to Berkeley because the other 30 went to Ivies, Chicago, Stanford, MIT Amherst, Williams, Pomona, etc. Most of them did not apply to Michigan.

The 46 students who got into Michigan are not the same group of 51 students that got into Berkeley, and they didn’t have the same other options. They are great students, but probably the top quarter of the class rather than the top ten percent. There probably was very little overlap between the two groups. Chances are, the students who went to Michigan are the ones that had UCSD or UCDavis as their in-state option.

Again - I love Michigan and I went there. But people are misusing statistics to draw inaccurate conclusions. I live in this milieu and I know how it really works.

33

@Alexandre said “but I will point out the obvious; how can there by 1,500 California residents enrolled at the University of Michigan, most of which are full pay? It is safe to say most of those students were admitted into UCLA or Berkeley or both.”

Acutally, it is safe to say that almost none of them were admitted to Berkeley or UCLA. That is why they are at Michigan instead.

34

“Is it as respected as Stanford? No, there are only 5 or so universities in the world at that level.”

I disagree. When you consider the sum of all its parts, Berkeley could easily be considered a top 5 school in the world.

35

I agree with @ThankYouforHelp that going to a wealthy and elite California private high school can actually be a disadvantage when it comes to getting into Berkeley and UCLA. The UCs place an exceedingly high emphasis on graduating in the top 10% of your class so that disadvantaged students from poorer schools/areas can get in. Therefore, even bright students at elite high schools may fail to get into the Berkeley and UCLA. And, really, if you go to one of these elite high schools, ending up at one of the lesser UCs is not perceived to much of an accomplishment.

Michigan is happy to scoop up this well-qualified (and full pay students), but it’s hard to say with certainty that many or most of these students would have chosen Michigan over Berkeley or UCLA if given a choice among all three.

Finally, bear in mind, that the price difference between Berkeley/UCLA and Michigan OOS may not be as huge as it may seem. A two bedroom apartment off-campus in Berkeley or on the west side of LA can easily cost $3000+ per month or over $2000 for a one bedroom. Ann Arbor rents are a relative bargain.

36

Just as a point of comparison, my daughter attended a CA public high school and was in the top five percent of her class. She was admitted to Michigan, USC, UCSD, UC Davis, UCSB, Wisconsin and some other solid schools. She was rejected by Berkeley and Northwestern, and wait listed by UCLA and Wash U - St Louis. Had she been accepted by Berkeley or UCLA, she likely would have ended up there. But she chose Michigan over the other UC schools and other good options. While costs were a consideration, Michigan unquestionably provides the “complete” college experience and has made it worth the out of state tuition.

37

ThankYouforHelp:

Your post makes a lot of sense.

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@ThankYouforHelp “actually, it is safe to say that almost none of them were admitted to Berkeley or UCLA. That is why they are at Michigan instead.”

My daughter has 3 friends in her sophomore class at UM from Cali. All got into either UCLA or Berkeley. They had the economic means to attend and wanted the “total package” experience that others wrote about earlier in this string. UM had over 44,000 OOS applicants last year. Their OOS acceptance rate would have dropped well into the teens if they didn’t add 500 spots. It’s still sub 20% for OOS. I know of several top ten OOS kids that got rejected from the East Coast. It’s not accurate to say its far easier for a Cali kid to get into UM OOS than to get into UCLA and Berkley. The OOS admission rate and criteria for OOS kids at UM just not support your point. Nor do real Cali kids that I met this year.

39

Why does uc Berkeley accept only top 10% when most of them aren’t going to go? That just screws up their yield. Umich defers overly qualified students who seem to use umich as their safety school so it doesn’t face the problem of low yield among top students as much as Berkeley faces.

40

absolutely agree with the post from THankyouforHelp---- in my D’s private high school ( each batch about 150-160) , only one or two get into Cal ( always someone in the top 3) but they send several to a few ivies, top 10 schools every year. In fact, in her graduating class ( last year) , one person got into both Stanford and harvard but denied at CAL.