<p>Hello I'm fairly new to the forum, so hi! Anyway, I've been wondering lately why for the past few USNews cycles UMich has been ranked below UCLA? Acceptance rate aside (UCLA's is obviously low because of sheer application volume), it seems like the admissions profile of Michigan's entering class tends to be SLIGHTLY more impressive than UCLA's. Can someone with full access to the site point out which metrics in USNews' methodology are lifting UCLA above UMich? This thread is not meant to be a USNews flame war, clearly both schools are excellent institutions.</p>
<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;
<a href=“http://www.aim.ucla.edu/CDS/cdsForm.asp[/url]”>http://www.aim.ucla.edu/CDS/cdsForm.asp</a></p>
<p>6-Year Graduation Rates
Michigan: 90%
UCLA: 90%</p>
<p>Freshmen Retention Rate
Michigan: 96%
UCLA: 97%</p>
<p>SAT Critical Reading
Michigan: 600-700
UCLA 560-690</p>
<p>SAT Math
Michigan: 650-750
UCLA: 610-740</p>
<p>ACT Composite
Michigan: 28-32
UCLA: 25-31</p>
<p>Average High School GPA
Michigan: 3.79
UCLA: 4.22</p>
<p>Need-Based Aid
Michigan: $102,378, 946
UCLA: $203, 090, 037</p>
<p>TO BE CONTINUED</p>
<p>Where UCLA beats Michigan according to the USNWR methodology is in faculty resources and financial resources. According to their formula, UCLA is ranked #36 and #23 in the nation in those two categories, while Michigan is ranked #59 and #36 in the nation. I am not sure how UCLA beats Michigan in the financial resources category. UCLA’s endowment ($2.6 billion) is three times smaller than Michigan’s ($7.8). I suppose that UCLA’s larger spending on financial aid helps it in this domain. I am also not sure how the USNWR measures faculty resources either.</p>
<p>In most other categories, Michigan and UCLA are roughly even. In fact, attempting to determine which sachool is better statistically is impossible. Nobody can compare elite schools when it comes to academic excellence, professonial/graduate school placement etc… Sufice it to say, both schools excel on those fronts.</p>
<p>At any rate, both universities are elite. Below are some differences that can help one choose between the two schools:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>UCLA is set in a large, world-class city while Michigan is one of the nicest college towns. Some people prefer large city life while others prefer quaint college towns. </p></li>
<li><p>UCLA tends to have little geographic diversity (90% CA residents but a great deal of racial (36% Asian and 16% Hispanic) and socio-economic diversity (30% Pell Grant recipients) while Michigan tends to have greater geographic diversity (40% OOS/international students), but less racial (65% white) and socio-economic diversity (Michigan students tend to come from middle-high income families).</p></li>
<li><p>Traditionally, UCLA is more of a Basketball school while Michigan is more of a Football school. Both are considered among the top 10 programs in their respective sports.</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA has nice SoCal weather, while Michigan has cold winters, sandwiched between a beautiful autumn and a welcomed spring! ;)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>think it is a toss-up. i do think getting required classes for degree (and major/concentration) completion may be easier at UM, although you still are the lowest rung as a freshman and— may get shut out of a class or two if you attend a later summer orientation session for incoming students. Pending cutbacks at the state level are a wild card for UC. My niece took 4 and a half years to graduate from UC Davis because of classes filling up. My daughter graduated from UM in 3 years w/a double concentration (after taking a few classes at the local CC following her freshman year at UM and getting some AP and retroactive foreign lang. credits also.) UCLA also has a little bit of a commuter feel to it and can be patchy on weekends as some kids return home. As mentioned, the Asian component of UCLA is quite visible w/ a “reverse” feeling at times among some other students that they are actually in the minority. Academically, I think they are equivalent. UM may however have more top ranked programs across a wider breath of concentrations, but I am not positive about that.</p>
<p>UCLA’s basketball program is looking for a strong rebound, but so too is UM’s. Both could go deep into the NCAA tourney (w/a little luck). UM football—well, that’s about as good as it gets.</p>
<p>Alexandre, regarding the financial resources, they look at overall spending for a previous academic year. This includes medical research costs. Endowment doesn’t play a factor in the USNWR ranking. UCLA may have more research spending…especially in medical research comparing Cal and UCLA.</p>
<p>“UCLA may have more research spending…”</p>
<p>Only JHU spends more money/year on research than Michigan.</p>
<p>^ That’s only because of their Applied Physics Lab, which is govt. funded in-house to JHU. Cal runs 3 national labs, one up the hill from the main campus, but its research spending is not counted. It’s all how the pie is divvied up.</p>
<p>The way the USNWR calculates Faculty Resouces and Financial Resources is laughable. If the figures released by universities were properly audited, virtually all top universities would have similar ratings. If the USNWR methodology were properly audited, very little would separate universities ranked between #6 and #40, and schools like Cal and Michigan would be ranked slightly higher (Cal between #6 and #9 and Michigan between #10 and #17).</p>
<p>In my honest opinion, I think UMich is the only public school that poised to overtake Cal, if one day Cal would be overtaken by another public university. It is only on CC where UMich is seen like it is a school inferior to schools like Emory or Vanderbilt. In reality, the reverse is actually true. The UMich brand name is globally prestigious with many more influential/rich/successful alumni than most of its peers, bar HYPSM.</p>
<p>Between UMich and UCLA, UMich is the better school.</p>
<p>Although academically, Michigan and UCLA are identical and both excellent, Michigan has several advantages that make it a stronger, more well-balanced university than UCLA:</p>
<ol>
<li>The primary difference is endowment. Although both schools enroll the same number of students, spend a lot on research and have top notch university-owned and managed medical schools and hospitals, Michigan’s endowment stands at $7.8 billion while UCLA’s stands at $2.6 billion. Of course, both being public universities means they receive money from the state. UCLA received $340 million from the state last year while Michigan received $270 million. That’s the equaivallent of an additional $6.8 billion of endowment in the case of UCLA and $5.4 billion in the case of Michigan. Still, the 3:1 advantage in endowment gives Michigan much greater leverage in discretionary spending matters.</li>
</ol>
<p>The remaining points are cosmetic, but they add up.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Geographic diversity of the student population and geographic dispersement of alumni. Michigan has a large number of alums in virtually all major cities around the world. The same cannot be said of UCLA.</p></li>
<li><p>This is related to the point above. Michigan attracts a relatively wealthy student body, which makes for excellent networking opportunities and a very affluent alumni network. According to a 90s report, Michigan’s alumni network was the 4th wealthiest in the US on a per capita basis. That is not surprising considering the fact that Michigan is moderately expensive (not as expensive as private universities but among the more expensive pulbics) and offers little to no aid to most OOS and international students who make up 40% of the student and alumni body. At UCLA, a significant 33% of undergrads qualify for Pell grants. A large percentage of the remaining students come from middle income families.</p></li>
<li><p>Again related to the above two points, Michigan can raise significantly more money through tuition, both as a result of having more OOS students (40% vs 10%) and charging higher tuition rates (UCLA’s CoA is equal to Michigan because of higher cost of living).</p></li>
<li><p>Strength of professional programs. Although UCLA and Michigan are approximately equal in Medicine, Michigan has a slight edge in Business and a significant edge in Engineering and Law. This greatly enhances the profile of the university and the impact of its alums.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Overall, both universities are excellent across the academic spectrum, but Michigan has a bit of an advantage overall thanks to its greater wealth.</p>
<p>That being said, I do not see Michigan overtaking Cal anytime soon. The most important factor in determining the quality of a university is faculty and departmental strength. In this domain, Cal has a significant advantage over Michigan, particularly in the hard sciences such as Biology, Chemistry and Physics. Michigan certainly has the edge where resources are concerned though, so who knows what will happen in the coming 10-20 years. ;)</p>
<p>Another advantage is the number of transfer students. UCLA enrolled 3,229 transfers (mostly from community colleges), compared to 1,032 from Michigan.</p>
<p>Good point GoBlue. I think Michigan’s transfer class is large enough, but 3,000+ transfers is way too many. </p>
<p>Like I said, academically and reputationally, Michigan and UCLA are peers. However, Michigan is more balanced.</p>
<p>
Another thing that could happen is the Berkeley campus is crippled for a few years via a major earthquake. Not sure if that would have stellar faculty fleeing, but it would impact research output.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>OOS, that statement isn’t really true. Tuition and fees for juniors and seniors are now over $40K. Harvard for example is slightly under $40k (not including a $900 health service fee, which I believe is waivable). Michigan is pretty much equal in tuition to most (but not all) of the highest priced privates. While room and board is lower than some, students have some control over that at most schools, but they have no control over tuition and fees.</p>
<p>Moreover, Michigan is absolutely No. 1 (unfortunately) among publics. While a few publics are close to Michigan’s tuition for the first two years, Michigan stands alone (as far as I know) at being over $40k in tuition for upperclassmen.</p>
<p>MichorPlan, Michigan tuition and fees is ~ $40,500 (average of upper and lower division). Most private peers have tuition and fees in the $43,000-$45,000 range. Michigan room and board is about $10,000. Most private peers have room and board fees in the $12,000-$14,000 range. On average, Michigan costs $5,000 less than its private peers.</p>
<p>Brown University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $11,000
Total: $55,000
[Cost</a> of Attendance | Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.brown.edu/about/administration/financial-aid/cost-attendance]Cost”>Cost of Attendance | Undergraduate | Financial Aid Undergradute | Brown University)</p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon
Tuition and Fees: $45,500
Room and Board: $11,500
Total: $57,000
[Admission</a> > Costs](<a href=“Home - Computing Services - Office of the CIO - Carnegie Mellon University”>Home - Computing Services - Office of the CIO - Carnegie Mellon University)</p>
<p>Cornell University
Tuition and Fees: $43,500
Room and Board: $13,500
Total: $57,000
[Cost</a> to Attend 2012-2013 | Admissions](<a href=“http://admissions.cornell.edu/cost-attend]Cost”>http://admissions.cornell.edu/cost-attend)</p>
<p>Duke University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,000
[Duke</a> Financial Aid: Determining Your Need](<a href=“http://www.finaid.duke.edu/undergraduate/prospectives/howitworks/need.html]Duke”>http://www.finaid.duke.edu/undergraduate/prospectives/howitworks/need.html)</p>
<p>George Washington University
Tuition and Fees: $46,000
Room and Board: $10,500
Total: $56,500
[Cost</a> of Attendance | Undergraduate | Costs & Financial Planning | Apply | The George Washington University](<a href=“http://www.gwu.edu/apply/costsfinancialplanning/undergraduate/costofattendance]Cost”>http://www.gwu.edu/apply/costsfinancialplanning/undergraduate/costofattendance)</p>
<p>Georgetown University
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $56,000
[Undergraduate</a> Cost of Attendance - Student Financial Services](<a href=“http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/undergraduate/]Undergraduate”>http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/undergraduate/)</p>
<p>New York University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $16,000
Total: $60,000</p>
<p>Northwestern University
Tuition and Fees: $43,500
Room and Board: $13,500
Total: $57,000
[Tuition</a>, Fees, and Expenses: Office of Undergraduate Admission - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees-and-expenses.html]Tuition”>http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees-and-expenses.html)</p>
<p>Tufts University
Tuition and Fees: $44,500
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,500
[Tufts</a> University Bursar](<a href=“Financial Services | AS&E Students”>Financial Services | AS&E Students)</p>
<p>University of Chicago
Tuition and fees: $44,500
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $57,500
<a href=“https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/costs/cost.shtml[/url]”>https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/costs/cost.shtml</a></p>
<p>University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Tuition and Fees: ($39,000+$42,000)/2 = $40,500
Room and Board: $10,000
Total: $50,500
[Office</a> of Financial Aid: Cost of Attendance](<a href=“http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx]Office”>http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx)</p>
<p>University of Notre Dame
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $55,000
[Cost</a> of Attendance : Office of Student Financial Services : University of Notre Dame](<a href=“http://financialaid.nd.edu/undergraduate/cost_of_attendance/]Cost”>http://financialaid.nd.edu/undergraduate/cost_of_attendance/)</p>
<p>University of Pennsylvania
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,000
[Penn:</a> FAQs](<a href=“http://www.upenn.edu/about/faq.php]Penn:”>http://www.upenn.edu/about/faq.php)</p>
<p>Washington University-St Louis
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $56,000
[Undergraduate</a> Charges](<a href=“http://admissions.wustl.edu/FinancialAssistance/Pages/charges.aspx]Undergraduate”>http://admissions.wustl.edu/FinancialAssistance/Pages/charges.aspx)</p>
<p>MichorPlan, Michigan tuition and fees is ~ $40,500 (average of upper and lower division). Most private peers have tuition and fees in the $43,000-$45,000 range. Michigan room and board is about $10,000. Most private peers have room and board fees in the $12,000-$14,000 range. On average, Michigan costs $5,000 less than its private peers.</p>
<p>Brown University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $11,000
Total: $55,000
[Cost</a> of Attendance | Financial Aid](<a href=“http://www.brown.edu/about/administration/financial-aid/cost-attendance]Cost”>Cost of Attendance | Undergraduate | Financial Aid Undergradute | Brown University)</p>
<p>Carnegie Mellon
Tuition and Fees: $45,500
Room and Board: $11,500
Total: $57,000
[Admission</a> > Costs](<a href=“Home - Computing Services - Office of the CIO - Carnegie Mellon University”>Home - Computing Services - Office of the CIO - Carnegie Mellon University)</p>
<p>Cornell University
Tuition and Fees: $43,500
Room and Board: $13,500
Total: $57,000
[Cost</a> to Attend 2012-2013 | Admissions](<a href=“http://admissions.cornell.edu/cost-attend]Cost”>http://admissions.cornell.edu/cost-attend)</p>
<p>Duke University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,000
[Duke</a> Financial Aid: Determining Your Need](<a href=“http://www.finaid.duke.edu/undergraduate/prospectives/howitworks/need.html]Duke”>http://www.finaid.duke.edu/undergraduate/prospectives/howitworks/need.html)</p>
<p>George Washington University
Tuition and Fees: $46,000
Room and Board: $10,500
Total: $56,500
[Cost</a> of Attendance | Undergraduate | Costs & Financial Planning | Apply | The George Washington University](<a href=“http://www.gwu.edu/apply/costsfinancialplanning/undergraduate/costofattendance]Cost”>http://www.gwu.edu/apply/costsfinancialplanning/undergraduate/costofattendance)</p>
<p>Georgetown University
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $56,000
[Undergraduate</a> Cost of Attendance - Student Financial Services](<a href=“http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/undergraduate/]Undergraduate”>http://finaid.georgetown.edu/cost-of-attendance/undergraduate/)</p>
<p>New York University
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $16,000
Total: $60,000</p>
<p>Northwestern University
Tuition and Fees: $43,500
Room and Board: $13,500
Total: $57,000
[Tuition</a>, Fees, and Expenses: Office of Undergraduate Admission - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees-and-expenses.html]Tuition”>http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/financial-aid/tuition-fees-and-expenses.html)</p>
<p>Tufts University
Tuition and Fees: $44,500
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,500
[Tufts</a> University Bursar](<a href=“Financial Services | AS&E Students”>Financial Services | AS&E Students)</p>
<p>University of Chicago
Tuition and fees: $44,500
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $57,500
<a href=“https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/costs/cost.shtml[/url]”>https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/costs/cost.shtml</a></p>
<p>University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
Tuition and Fees: ($39,000+$42,000)/2 = $40,500
Room and Board: $10,000
Total: $50,500
[Office</a> of Financial Aid: Cost of Attendance](<a href=“http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx]Office”>http://www.finaid.umich.edu/TopNav/AboutUMFinancialAid/CostofAttendance.aspx)</p>
<p>University of Notre Dame
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $55,000
[Cost</a> of Attendance : Office of Student Financial Services : University of Notre Dame](<a href=“http://financialaid.nd.edu/undergraduate/cost_of_attendance/]Cost”>http://financialaid.nd.edu/undergraduate/cost_of_attendance/)</p>
<p>University of Pennsylvania
Tuition and Fees: $44,000
Room and Board: $12,000
Total: $56,000
[Penn:</a> FAQs](<a href=“http://www.upenn.edu/about/faq.php]Penn:”>http://www.upenn.edu/about/faq.php)</p>
<p>Washington University-St Louis
Tuition and Fees: $43,000
Room and Board: $13,000
Total: $56,000
[Undergraduate</a> Charges](<a href=“http://admissions.wustl.edu/FinancialAssistance/Pages/charges.aspx]Undergraduate”>http://admissions.wustl.edu/FinancialAssistance/Pages/charges.aspx)</p>
<p>As for other publics, Michigan’s tuition may be higher than Cal and UCLA, but Michigan’s room and board fees is significantly lower. When you add them up, it actually costs as much to attend the UCs as it does to attend Michigan:</p>
<p>Tuition and Fees:
Michigan: $40,500
UCLA: $36,000
Cal: $36,000</p>
<p>Room and Board
Michigan: $10,000
UCLA: $14,000
Cal: $14,000</p>
<p>Total
Michigan: $50,500
UCLA: $50,000
Cal: $50,000</p>
<p>[Fees</a>, Tuition, and Estimated Student Budget - UCLA Undergraduate Admissions](<a href=“http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm]Fees”>http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm)
[UC</a> Berkeley Financial Aid and Scholarships Office Cost of Attendance](<a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm]UC”>http://students.berkeley.edu/finaid/home/cost.htm)</p>
<p>Alexandre, you kind of cherry-picked the institutions you chose. GW has had the highest priced tuition for years, so yes by definition, Michigan’s tuition is less than the highest-priced tuition in the country. But, as I previously stated, it is higher than Harvard’s. As a couple of other examples, it is also higher than Princeton ($38,650) and Rice ($36,600). The fact that there are a handful of private schools that have higher tuitiion than Michigan is not something I think Michigan can brag about. </p>
<p>While it is true that some schools have higher Room and Board than Michigan, that is somewhat besides the point. As most students live off campus after thier first year (or even all four years), the published room and board rates are mostly irrelevant. Students can choose to live further away from campus with six students in a two-bedroom apartment and pay substantially less than the published amount, or live in a single apartment and pay substantially more. The point is that students (and/lor their parents) have some control over what they spend on room and board, but they have no control over what they spend on tuition and fees.</p>
<p>Finally, even using your numbers, Michigan still has the dubious distinction of being NUMBER 1, in having the highest priced OOS tuition and room and board (albeit, not by a large amount) for a public institution in the ENTIRE COUNTRY. Again, that is not something it can really brag about.</p>
<p>MichorPlan, I was not cherry picking, you are. The fact is, more than 40 of the nation’s top 50 private universities have higher tuition and fees than Michigan. Rice is known for being a great value while Harvard and Princeton have endowments of $2 million per student, enabling them to charge less tuition. Heck, Princeton could do away with tuition altogether if it wished to. I will provide us all with the tuition and fees for all of the top 50 private universities later today.</p>
<p>As for Michigan being the most expensive public, it also happens to be one of the top 5 public universities in the nation, some would argue #2 among publics. Furthermore, just as students living off campus, the same can be said of students in Michigan. Either way, the cost of living in Ann Arbor, although relatively high, is still significantly lower than the cost of living in California.</p>