@PursuitToExcel, I am an MD PhD. However, unlike many physician scientists I know in this country, especially those who work in top rank medical schools, I am more an MD than a PhD, while most others are the other way around. I have always said that I am in research because of patients, but many physician scientists I know who are in medicine because of research.
@Roentgen, Could you please provide the additional efforts (in additon to the GPA, USMLE exams) that you put in to get into the one of the high demand specialities? That would help the new students who decide to join UMKC. Thank you.
@PursuitToExcel, there is no convincing you otherwise bc it seems like you’re more interested in defending the program. I’ll say again, if the clinical experience was so “great” to where their students are so clinically ahead of students from other institutions, other institutions would be courting their students in droves for their residency program. If you look at UMKC’s IM program, most of their residents are IMGs, not even their own students.
Any medical student can do electives in other places and study abroad. Research is a different monster altogether, in which you are limited by location. Research isn’t just for PhDs. Medical students take part in research for very good reason - to help build up their residency applications, which for some specialties is a requirement to even be considered.
@ztn161, I’m in the specialty of Anesthesiology, so I would classify my specialty as “high demand” or competitive to obtain.
But I would say for those competitive specialties, besides high rank in your class and competitive USMLE scores, that you should have
*A home residency program in that specialty
*Good LORs from those in your required clerkships AND those in your specialty
*Research (with tangible results: abstract/poster presentations, publications)
So for example, if you were going for a competitive specialty, and that specialty doesn’t exist at your medical school, then you will have a much more difficult time in getting 4 and 5, which will then make it difficult to match in that specialty. I’ve had friends who were the top of my class with great board scores, and did not end up matching due to the limited opportunities available to them for their specialty.
Like I said, if you’re interested in going into Primary Care, then you should have no problem bc after UMKC’s goal is to create more primary care physicians.
It is interesting to see how different people can interpret the same data differently, depending on whether you always view the glass as being half full or half empty. It is always the wrong conclusion to draw that many students from any particular program end up in primary care just because they match into internal medicine. The only residency program that I would consider primary care is family medicine. Pediatrics residents may end up doing primary pediatric care but many actually go into pediatric subspecialties. This is the same for internal medicine residents going into subspecialties such as cardiology, heme/onc, endocrinology, ID, etc etc. Even many OBGyn residents go into subspecialties such as high risk OB and Gyne Onc.
The fact that not many of UMKC students staying back at UMKC to do IM can be interpreted two ways: As Roentgen said, it could reflect that the UMKC IM program is so bad that none of the students want to stay back at UMKC. Alternatively, it may also be that the UMKC graduates are looked at so highly that they are marketable elsewhere. Remember, it is always easier to get into the residency programs in your own medical school than elsewhere, as also pointed out by Roentgen.
@ztn161, Sorry, it should say above “I’m in the specialty of Anesthesiology, so I would NOT classify my specialty as “high demand” or competitive to obtain.”
@Roentgen, I am defending the program because I have family members who have attended and they tell me otherwise. My dad got into extremely competitive residencies out of UMKC and he got into internal medicine and GI at Mayo in Minnesota. I just don’t want other people to be discouraged because you are insulting the program.
@PursuitToExcel, Of course you’re defending the school (no matter what) bc your family attended the school - that is quite clear. We should go by the average, not the exception, esp. for those who don’t have alumni family members.
@Roentge, if I were accepted to UMKC I would definitely go there because there’s nothing like having a guarantee into medical school these days. There are just a lot more opportunities out there once someone has an MD in their hands. Especially since UMKC finishes two years early, someone could always do a couple of transitional years to boost their resumes before applying to competitive residencies. Also, UMKC does have research opportunities and Kansas City is just growing in general right now. I looked at the 2013 UMKC match list and it looked fairly impressive to me. One person even matched in neurosurgery at Rush which is very competitive. There are other notable matches as well. And just because people are matching in internal medicine and family practice does not mean that they were not competitive enough to match in other fields. Many of those people may really have a passion for primary care or they may be trying to do a subspecialty in internal medicine like IMGDAD mentioned. I looked at the Harvard residency matchlist the other day and about the same percentage of their students went into internal medicine as UMKC. I know what its like to be at a lowly ranked school and have to work my way up. I live in a small town and I don’t go to a prestigious high school and I know there are always opportunities out there for everyone who searches for them.
@PursuitToExcel, yes, the UMKC match list is actually rather good considering that it is being an unranked or lowly ranked medical school. One can only draw definite conclusion that “most students” going into primary care if most students are matched into family medicine. There is no way to know if the students will go into primary care if the students do IM, Peds, or OBGyne since these are the required residency programs for fellowship training in the various highly competitive subspecialties, including heme/onc and cardiology. However, one can definitely say that the graduates from that particular medical school are doing well if they are matched into Neurosurgery, Radiology, Opthalmology, and Dermatology, and all these were represented in the UMKC 2013 match list!
@PursuitToExcel, I saw from your previous postings on CC that you will graduate from HS with a tons of college credits. Good for you and I hope you make full use of them if you go to UMKC. Transfer of those college credits to UMKC will lighten your class schedules for Year 1 and Year 2 a lot. So, make full use of the free time and get yourself involved in research. At this stage in your career, the quality of research is not as important as the demonstration of activities of research. Try to get some publications (again the quality is not as important at this stage in your career) and as long as you do not bomb your Step exams, you will be good and competitive.
@IMGDAD, thank you so much for that advice. That is exactly what my parents have been telling me. Unfortunately, it is all of these other people bashing the program that is making me have doubts. I absolutely love everything about the program and I have even read the student handbook for 2013-2014. I have already checked with UMKC about all of my credits and they said all of them will transfer. I don’t fear the same “overload” of coursework that many other people are anticipating at this school. I am enrolled in 25 college credit hours right now at universities and colleges in my state and over the summer I took 21 hours. I totally agree with you about the research and I already know a specific department at UMKC that I would be interested in researching in. Most research students our age are going to get to do anyways is basic bench research under another professor (most likely recording data). That is why I don’t see the difference between recording data at Harvard or recording data at UMKC. Most of the important research in a doctor’s career does not begin until residency anyways. Regarding the USMLE step exams, there is an abundant amount of resources out there to prepare for that exam. There are professional courses all over the country and its all about how much someone is motivated to succeed on it.
@PursitToExcel, you have the right attitude. You should just go ahead and do what you feel is best for you, never mind about what the others say. One man’s meat is another man’s poison. Although in every opportunity, the end result is highly dependent on how you make use of the opportunity. Very often an exactly same opportunity leads to different outcomes depending on how you use the opportunity. Good luck. If both you and my son get in to the UMKC program, I will sure to ask him to look you up.
@IMGDAD, I could not agree with you more. I know that with a passion and drive for medicine, it does not matter which path someone takes to get to the end goal. However, its all about finding the path that we think will allow us to get there with the fewest road bumps along the way. I heard that at some of the tours at UMKC they were talking about a student who took a leave of absence during his 5th year of the program to go to the NIH to do some type of prestigious research internship. That is a perfect example of how opportunities are available no matter where you go to school. And thanks, good luck to your son as well. Once the decisions come out, it would be a good idea for someone to start a facebook group or something for those accepted. The worst part right now is just waiting one whole month for those decisions to come out. Going through this year of college applications and waiting and everything makes me really reluctant to have to apply to med school again four years from now. Its the same waiting that would pretty much force me to accept UMKC if I was accepted. Haha
@PursuitToExcel, If you look at the proportion of people who are actually able to match into competitive specialties, UMKC is relatively low. This is not surprising at all, bc UMKC is not prestigious nor big on research (clinical or basic science). They are missing many of the competitive residencies, that other schools have and whose students can get involved in and take part in research, longer than one month electives. The generalist specialties (i.e. Primary Care) are considered to be Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, and Pediatrics (some might even make the argument for OB-Gyn and Surgery). Unless you’re clairvoyant, you have no idea whether those people will end up getting competitive fellowships, like GI and Cards, when it’s more difficult to participate in research during residency.
UMKC may have one person match into Neurosurgery, but like I said, there will always be the person two standard deviations above the average, who will flourish no matter where they go. It’s an outlier, not a trend. Look at 2012 & 2011. No one matched into Neurosurgery. There will always be a fluke (i.e. 1 person matching), but you have to look at the trend. Compare this to other medical schools match lists in which you’ll have several people who match into Neurosurgery, Dermatology, Radiation Oncology, etc.
I’m curious where you saw the Harvard Medical School match list as it’s not on Google or available on HMS website. Also for Internal Medicine, as it is a relatively non-competitive specialty which has a wide variety of institutional quality. I guarantee you that HMS students that are going for IM are matching in top tier places like Brigham and Women’s, Mass General, Hopkins, Stanford, etc.
@Roentgen, I have a subscription to the MSAR, that is where I saw the Harvard Medical School class breakdown. It didn’t list all of the students, just the percentages. Also, being successful in fields like medicine isn’t about conforming to the norm and doing what “most people do”. Its about creating your own path and being that exception rather than the rule. I would rather go to UMKC and try to be the exception than go to Harvard and be the “rule”. Physician scientists don’t accomplish anything groundbreaking in research unless they are able to think outside the box and deviate from the norm. Considering that UMKC has an extremely high rate of acceptance, I would say that most people are confident in their decision to attend the school. Unlike many other schools, UMKC only slightly overshoots the desired class size to get the necessary number of students. I know that there will be plenty of opportunities for me if I were to attend that school and that I would always regret it if I did not go there. If accepted, I will not be blindly accepting UMKC, I will be making an informed decision as I have already looked into this fairly deeply. I have other 4+4 options but I don’t want to later regret not taking a golden ticket to medical school because I was overly confident about how competitive of an applicant I will be coming out of undergrad. I am not a natural born test-taker, I always have to work extra hard to get places. That is another reason why it does not make sense for me to take my chances with the MCAT if I don’t have to. I would rather focus my efforts on learning pure medical skills at UMKC and studying for boards as early as possible. I know that the USMLE is the nationwide equalizer for medical students and that allows any student from any medical school a shot at the most competitive residencies. Also, doing out of town electives at elite institutions can also help match at those residencies.
Also something else to take into account. The people going to Harvard Medical School have to be elite and brilliant in the first place. Who is to say that Harvard is what is making those students match into top residencies? How do you know that those students would not match into super competitive residencies out of UMKC? I see this same trend when it comes to undergraduate colleges too. Many people think that its all about the name of the place that you attend. In reality, its not. College admissions is a process that allows these universities to “scout” out what students they want. The universities with the prestige are naturally going to attract the “prestigious” students who have been born into wealth and have attended northeastern prep schools from a young age. Maybe the reason why UMKC students are not always matching into neurosurgery is because they don’t want to do neurosurgery… The competitiveness for surgical residencies is on the decline because of the rigor of the work that is demanded in residency and beyond. I have yet to hear about a UMKC student who has really wanted to match in a top neurosurgery residency but hasn’t… Maybe its possible that only 1 or 2 students in 2013 even tried to match in that field. After all, neurosurgery is not a super common field… There are many perspectives that someone can look at this situation from, so make sure that before trying to discourage someone from attending a school, that you approach it from all of those perspectives.
@PursuitToExcel, why are you wasting your time justifying to some very narrow-minded person for what you know is the right career option for you? This is your life and you are the only one who should determine your destiny. Be confident with your own ability. I am not a Caucasian and I went to a third tier medical school in the United Kingdom. However, I was confident about creating my own destiny and always said proudly that “I do not need the reputation of an institution to carry my career forward”. Sticking to my philosophy, I ended up being offered a highly competitive senior physician position over graduates from U of London and U of Cambridge. So you can create your own destiny to where you want to go if you have the will to do so, without needing the reputation of the medical school to carry you forward.
@PursuitToExcel, you originally acknowledged this:
Apparently, you weren’t really interested in the answer as to why this is, which is completely ok. Just don’t try to justify your opinion with pablums like all one needs to do succeed and match anywhere is work hard, be motivated, and “create your own path”. Everyone who comes in Year 1 has the same feelings that you do and wishes to aim to be top of the class. But like the saying goes, 50% of the medical school class will be in the bottom half of their class. Even as the exception at UMKC, you will not accomplish as much as the rule at Harvard. Why? Bc the caliber of student at UMKC’s med school is quite different than the caliber of student accepted at Harvard Medical School. Residencies recognize this and thus are very aware of the quality of students from different medical schools based on students that their schools have sent them in the past. Real life isn’t as egalitarian as you believe it to be.
Research isn’t just “bench” research. Unless you’re an MD/PhD student, you don’t do this type of research. Most of the research med students participate in is in clinical research to have publications available by the time they participate in the match. Participating in research at Harvard is VASTLY different than participating in research at UMKC, due to # of participating faculty, available resources, available funding, etc.
A high USMLE score is nowhere near your ticket to getting a competitive specialty. It is not an “equalizer”. It is the minimum requirement. It does not “allows any student from any medical school a shot at the most competitive residencies”.
As far at USMLE exams, if you think a professional course, is going to help you kick butt on it, you’re highly mistakened. I know tons of students who were hardworking, smart, and highly motivated, and didn’t kick butt. Getting a 240 is more than just motivation and hard work. If you in fact say you’re not “a natural born test-taker”, you will have more than enough trouble on the USMLE, much less the MCAT which pales in comparison in difficulty.
@PursuitToExcel, Harvard Medical School is well-respected by residency programs across the nation. Is it the only one? No. The entire top tier of medical schools is also in this group. Med schools are arranged in tiers, just like undergrad institutions are, Law Schools are, Business schools are, etc. Residency program directors are well aware of the type of quality of students that come from certain medical schools, when recruiting. Harvard Medical School provides its students the opportunity to rotate in one of the best hospitals in the nation as well as the availability of doing research with people at the top their field, something UMKC would definitely not provide. For certain residencies, if they had to pick the Harvard Student or the UMKC, both of whom have the exact same application, they will pick the Harvard student, hands down.
Prestigious students aren’t just people who are “born into wealth and have attended northeastern prep schools”. While this may occur at the undergraduate level somewhat (although they are very much the minority, regardless of what you choose to believe), at the medical school level, this is not the case, bc if a person who is “born into wealth and have attended northeastern prep schools”, but doesn’t have the scores and GPA to back it up, will flounder in medical school and eventually make the medical school look bad.
As far as Neurosurgery, I knew you were going to say that. This applies to many competitive residencies not just a rigorous subspecialty like Neurosurgery. Hence that’s why it’s good to compare a match list for UMKC with a similar tiered medical school, with similar matriculation stats, like Kansas University, or maybe a medical school in Illinois that is not Northwestern or University of Chicago, and you’ll see they are very different.