UMKC 6-year BS/MD Program

@zuchinicakes, sorry, I was referring to the Guaranteed Admissions Baccalaureate/M.D. Program: http://med.umkc.edu/bamd/opportunities/, it’s effectively a 7 year variant that allows you to have a completely normal undergraduate first year (you pay undergraduate level tuition, which at UMKC for in-staters is very cheap at $4,800 per semester) and thus gain quite a bit of credit to apply towards your degree, before entering the 6 year program. It’s only allowed for 10 in-state students (I don’t know why regionals and out-of-state students are not included).

I was more referring to using this particular program as a way to find out more about the particulars of the medical school and program from different sources, which I listed in one of my previous posts to @NervousDad01’s question, since he had some of the concerns similar to @NewUser25, although his son probably wouldn’t qualify since he’s out-of-state. But just saying, if someone decided that UMKC wasn’t the med school they want to go to during that year, there would be no real time lost since UMKC’s undergraduate courses fully transfer to other institutions, esp. w/in the UM-system. If they decided to continue in the program, their course load would be immensely lightened in terms of the Bachelor’s degree requirements.

@Roentgen, Thanks for your thoughtful answers, I appreciate it. I had a talk with my daughter last night and another concern seems to be about work-life balance once she gets married, starts family etc. She understands medical school will involve studying long hours and residency will involve long work-weeks (80 hr weeks?).

How is a doctor’s workload in terms of hours worked once one starts practicing? Do they have flexibility to choose, say work 3 days week etc.? She is interested in Internal Medicine or Pediatrics. The doctor that she shadowed (Pediatrics GI) seemed to work a lot of hours.

@NewUser25,

Your daughter is definitely wise beyond her years and it’s really great that she’s discussing these aspects with you. I’m happy to answer. So yes, she probably realizes that medical school does involve quite a few hours of sustained studying during the basic science years, but there are also clinical rotations you do during the third year of medical school that can involve very long hours (which is our Year 5 in the program - i.e. General Surgery, OB-Gyn, sometimes IM, etc., we do have select rotations during Year 4 as well – Family Medicine, Year 4 Internal Medicine). although there are other rotations where this is not the case (i.e. Psychiatry). As she mentions, residency is about 80+ hours per week (it’s not like a clock in-clock out punching a time card type of system, it’s more monthly self-reported data by the resident which as you can imagine can lend itself to being fudged): http://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/2009/11/ccas1-0911.html, although residency training is a finite amount of time. The 80 hour work week for residency training actually came about because of work-hour restrictions that came about first starting in 2003: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_resident_work_hours. All this I realize she understands, but as you well know, sometimes knowing how something is in theory and actually experiencing it can be very different in terms of understanding the gravity of the situation.

So I think once you’re a full-fledged attending (whether right after residency or after a subspecialty fellowship), workload, and thus work-life balance, can vary a lot depending on the:[ul]
[]practice type (hospital, group practice, solo practice)
[
]specialty & subspecialty (examples - Neurosurgery vs. Derm; Cardiology vs. Allergy/Immunology; Emergency Medicine - which tends to be shift work, they do x number of shifts a month)
[li]the area you’re working in (city vs. rural) and how desperate they need that particular physician in that particular area (that’s why rural areas tend to have much higher salaries vs. major cities since they have great difficulty getting practitioners, although this also affected by your payor mix, i.e. # of those with private insurance, # of Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare Exchange plans, etc.).[/ul][/li]Different specialties and subspecialties alone, just naturally have different lifestyles due to the particular problems they treat and the chances of having an emergency in that field (that’s why call was created, although this is usually on a rotating schedule – hospitals tend to have some type of call schedule in a department where you have to be at the hospital although this can vary, group practice tends to split it among the group if call is necessary in their specialty - which is usually taken as home call and then if something comes in, you go to the particular hospital where you have hospital privileges). For example, Cardiology, is not likely to have a great lifestyle overall once you’re an attending (subspecializing after IM or Peds), vs. say PM&R (Physical Medicine and Rehab).

Part-time work is probably more available in Pediatrics, in general, than many other specialties, just because a higher percentage of practitioners in that field are women and find being able to work part-time important - i.e. especially after giving birth, etc. So when they’re looking for jobs, and if you don’t offer the possibility of working part-time, pediatricians will just go to someone else who does. IM also does offer part-time work as well - although probably more in areas like outpatient General medicine or Allergy/Immunology, which is outpatient by nature. For example, you usually can’t be a part-time cardiologist – it just won’t work, because people get heart attacks that can happen any time, you can’t be a part-time neurosurgeon (as far as I know).

In terms of availability of part-time work, this can also vary a lot by practice type and specialty. A hospital is probably not likely to hire someone who wants to work part-time, vs. say a private practice that has had difficulty in getting someone for a while or for whom making availability of a part-time option a priority. You can read about the lifestyle of Pediatric Gastroenterology here: http://www.pedsubs.org/subdes/Gastroenterology.cfm, which reading it seems pretty accurate based on what I’ve seen. Realize that many times in private practice, doctors might work longer just because you’re the one bringing in the money to pay the bills and keep your lights on in the private practice, unlike if you work for a hospital or an academic medical center which already has a huge infrastructure in place, and where you’re usually on salary and have to see x number of patients per year, blah blah which is all stated in your contract, but on the flip side is that the hospital, as your employer, calls the shots on many aspects.

In that Youtube video, I posted above on PA vs. MD, I believe they do discuss about training length, lifestyle, and work-life balance. For example, a PA doesn’t do a residency, but can flip between specialties easier, unlike a physician who can’t do that because you’d have to redo a residency in that field before practicing it. I will say this, and this is only my opinion, but I feel like if you come into medical school initially with the major concern about lifestyle, medicine will be much much harder for you, just because there is a LOT of delayed gratification that you will have to be able to put up with, before you finally get to enjoy that particular lifestyle (not even taking into account that certain residencies and subspecialty fellowships can be very competitive to get due to the inherent lifestyle). Many older attendings are very disconnected when it comes to lifestyle concerns, but they also were born in a different generation, when medicine was much different than it is now in terms of what they value: http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/Leading-the-Four-Generations-at-Work.aspx.

I think it’s one of the major issues that will affect medicine more and more, and affect our profession greatly, when students these days are much more willing to scope out other choices and not just automatically jump on the physician bandwagon, just because they want a career in healthcare (i.e. see the PA and NP professions - in which the delay of gratification to finally practice tends to be smaller & overall responsibilities tend to be less, compared to physicians and thus more lifestyle conducive, not to mention probably less student debt although I haven’t calculated out the numbers exactly, the way the Atlantic article did that I posted above). And then there are professions like Dentistry (with its subspecialties) or Optometry in which a controlled lifestyle is already built into the cake, and thus much more well accepted by those in the profession, because of the particular work that they do. I hope that makes sense and that I answered your questions.

@Roentgen Thank you so much for all your guidance!

@Roentgen,

In looking at this BA/MD program, is the curriculum likely to change dramatically any time over the next several years? You had mentioned some of the college science premed requirements that are skipped in the beginning and how certain classes are very short period in time, I think you said Pharmacology, to make it all fit in. Or is it likely to become a 7 or 8 year program in the future? If it does change, will the people who come in this fall be affected?

@NervousDad01,

So in reality, based on my experience, it has been very difficult to institute huge changes in the BA/MD program curriculum (even if those changes would be very beneficial to our students) because at UMKC, those 2 components - the BA and the MD, are intertwined from the beginning. It’s not like other combined programs where you concentrate fully on the Bachelor degree courses for 2-4 years, get your BA or BS degree at graduation, and THEN move on to the 4 years at the medical school with everyone else and concentrate fully on that. So if there are any changes made in curriculum in those combined programs, it only affects the BA/BS or the MD, but not both. That’s different than our program in which any changes affect both the BA and the MD. For example, both our Biochemistry course (which is taught at the med school level, not undergraduate level) and our Human Structure Function course in Year 2 fulfill the MD degree requirements, but they also go towards the specific Bachelor’s degree requirements.

With any curriculum change, a medical school has to take into consideration what the total curriculum would look like after the change (and still following any LCME accreditation standards), but they also have to take into account other things like which class year to start implementing it with, student course failure/withdrawal, how that student then remediates that course, promotion policy, etc. After all that, which all schools have to consider, UMKC Med has the additional requirements of a) being able to fit it within the framework of our students earning their Bachelor’s degree (and any changes have to be approved at the main university and the particular college on the Volker campus that approves the bachelor’s degree) and their MD degree simultaneously, and b) still fit it all into 6 years. I don’t see the 6 year program ever disappearing at UMKC (like it has at other combined programs), mainly because of tradition & history of how/why the school was built. There will be variant programs available very recently, that never existed before (i.e. the Guaranteed Admissions Program: http://med.umkc.edu/bamd/opportunities/ or the Medical Scholars Program: http://med.umkc.edu/md/med_scholars_program/), but I don’t see the school as a whole, officially converting to a 7 year or 8 year BA/MD model for everyone, unless it was a very very dire situation for the med school. It would have to be pretty bad, since especially now with almost no 6 year programs left in the U.S., the 6 year aspect is a great selling point for the school to potential applicants and to capture stellar applicants who might not come to UMKC otherwise, if it was officially lengthened to 7 or 8 years, since there are quite a few combined programs like those.

In a traditional medical school, or in a combined program where the Bachelor degree and MD degree are very much separate, they only have to worry about the 4 years of medical school, since everyone who enters into medical school comes in having already completed a Bachelor’s degree. So they can really change up the curriculum as much as they want, within certain parameters.

Here’s a good example of a curriculum change that is happening with the Indiana University School of Medicine (which incidentally also has an in-state Bachelor/MD program). They’re finally changing from a traditional subject-based basic science curriculum to a more organ systems based basic science curriculum.[ul]
[]Their basic science course listing as it is now: http://mse.medicine.iu.edu/curricular-affairs/curriculum/ms-1-and-2/index.html (You can click on each satellite campus link, to see how they split the basic science curriculum up in terms of timing.
[
]Their new basic science curriculum listing starting for this coming Fall 2016 for incoming MS-1 students: https://curriculum.medicine.iu.edu/phase-1-courses-goals/[/ul]
This type of huge change would be much harder to implement (and implement well) at UMKC, just because we’re fulfilling course requirements for the Bachelor’s degree thru the Volker campus and MD at the same time, even though it would probably be very beneficial for our students in terms of Step scores, shelf scores, clinical medical knowledge as assessed on clerkships, etc. It’s also harder because of our special requirements we have in our curriculum - extra months of DoRo (Internal Medicine), half-day per week of Continuity Clinic for 4 years, etc. and of course, making it all fit in 6 years.

In general, at UMKC Med, whether a curriculum change or promotion policy change affects you or not depends where you are in the BA/MD program. If you’re already past that point when those course changes would take effect and have already promoted, then you obviously will not be affected. But if you have yet to take those courses then you will be affected. Whenever a curriculum change or a promotion policy change in the BA/MD program is made, it usually is never held off to only affect incoming Year 1s who come thru the program (unfortunately). It’s usually implemented immediately and affects whatever BA/MD class it happens to affect. That happened this year with the change in the Year 3 curriculum, with Pathology I and Pathology II now in different semesters thus running for the entire year, rather than just having Path I and II in the Spring, like it had been for a long time. You can look at the major maps from different years on the website and see the change made at Year 3 for yourself: http://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/. Hope this answers your questions.

@Roentgen,

Appreciate your detailed and thoughtful responses. One question that I thought of: What has historically been the drop-out rate from this program and how does that compare with other medical schools? When do students usually drop-out - Year 1, Year 2 etc.?

Also, does the program have comparable “match” percentage into residencies? What do graduates go do not match typically do?

Thanks again.

@newuser25

So actually I just recently posted regarding attrition rates from the BA/MD program, as someone else had wanted to know this information as well, which I’ve included the most current public data that we have to go off of, which you can see here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19494705/#Comment_19494705. I also included attrition data of traditional 4 year medical schools as a direct comparison. Based on numbers that they’ve posted, attrition is very high at the Year 1-2 level, much lower at the Year 3-6 level, but still relatively higher than the traditional 4-year medical school average. Our MD-only students (who’ve completed a Bachelor degree) who enter the curriculum at Spring of Year 2, only make up for BA/MD attrition that has occurred at that point to bring the class size back up to the original number of about 115-120.

I would say that most of the dropout does indeed occur at Years 1 and 2 (more in Year 2 really), but that’s also because your level of investment at that time is still relatively low by that point (2 years, still 5 figure tuition which can still be paid off relatively easily) and still be able to switch gears and change professions. As you progress past that point though, students are probably less likely to voluntarily just get up and leave the program on their own accord, not because they don’t want to, but just because of the amount of time and tuition that they’ve already put in by that point, although clearly it does happen and for a range of different reasons.

You can see my analysis of this year’s match list here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19480193#Comment_19480193
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19480195/#Comment_19480195
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19480200/#Comment_19480200

You can see previous match lists from @UMKCRoosMD here:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17808190#Comment_17808190. Match lists from 2014, 2015, and 2016 are on the website.

I don’t know what you mean by “comparable ‘match’ percentage into residencies”. Are you referring to certain specialties or just matching overall, in general?

So graduates who typically go unmatched for residency have several options after they graduate from med school. They can do research for a year and try again during that upcoming fall. Those who have only matched into an internship but not into a full residency would apply during their internship year for a full residency. In both cases, more often than not, it requires the person to have a realistic look at their application as it stands then, to see whether they will realistically be able to match into their first choice of specialty for residency, or whether they need to seriously start considering and also applying to backup specialties that they would be fine practicing clinical medicine in. Some people might leave the practice of medicine altogether and go into consulting, hospital management, work for Pharma, etc. but just so that’s it’s clear, those are harder to come by with only being an MD graduate, vs. say having finished a residency, so I imagine that doesn’t happen very often, especially coming from UMKC vs. say if you went to a top-tier medical school at Harvard or Columbia and start doing consulting work for McKinsey, or went to medical school at UCSF or Stanford and start working for bio tech/digital health companies, etc.: http://ww2.kqed.org/futureofyou/2015/07/17/increasingly-young-bay-area-doctors-leave-medicine-for-digital-health/. Because the reasons why someone didn’t match run the gamut to begin with (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/ama-wire/post/arent-medical-students-matching-happens-next), the specific solution as to what to do will vary immensely from one individual to another.

@Roentgen @Roentgen The program is “48 weeks per year” after year 2. When do the limited breaks occur?

@2022md, you can see here in the 2015-2016 BA/MD student handbook (although you’ll probably get an updated one from them): http://med.umkc.edu/docs/sa/MD_Handbook_2015-2016.pdf, with respect to vacation time, on page 58 at the bottom.

After Year 2, the vacation time tends to add up to 1 month or maybe a little bit more than a month, per year, as you still do get holidays like MLK day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Spring Break, etc. since in Year 3 it still runs by a semester schedule, although not necessarily by the UMKC Volker campus schedule.

In Years 4-6, you are allocated 1 month of official vacation per year, since it switches to a monthly type schedule, except for your specific campus semester, in which that vacation month is split by your campus (if you do fall or spring campus) since it goes by the university Volker campus calendar.

One particular change I just saw is that UMKC med students now do get particular 1 day holiday rotations off, besides Thanksgiving and Christmas, even on clinical rotations in Year 5 (see page 59 at the bottom).

@Roentgen, when you were talking about School of Medicine rate for tuition, is it the same all 6 years or is it different from the first 2 years and the last 4 years? Is this per credit hour?

@NervousDad01,

So in Years 1-2, you’re charged at the School of Medicine rate (resident, regional, or non-resident) for each credit hour of enrollment, regardless of whether it’s an undergraduate credit hour or a Medicine credit hour. So currently for the 2015-2016 year, SOM in-staters were charged $694.52 per credit hour, SOM regionals were charged $992.09 per credit hour, and SOM out-of-staters were charged $1,289.65 per credit hour in the normal fall or spring semester. Just as a comparison, for undergraduate resident, Midwest exchange [their version of regional], or non-resident students at UMKC, it’s $371.69 per credit hour, $507.84 per credit hour, and $810.39 per credit hour respectively. So you pay almost twice the amount for in-state and regional undergrad students per credit hour, and one-and-a-half times the amount for out-of-state undergrad students, in the first 2 years. Year 1 and 2s are charged the same rate in any particular year, although that rate increases a smidgen each year, so you won’t pay the exact same rate you did as a Year 1, as you will in Year 2, just because tuition always goes up, like it does everywhere else.

Remember, you have to maintain full time status each semester, so you have to be enrolled in at least 12 credit hours in the Fall/Spring, and at least 6 hours in the summer semester, regardless of how much credit you’re coming in with. They stop assessing tuition after 16 hours in the regular semester, but especially in like Year 2, you’ll hit the 16 hours easily, due to Docent (Fundamentals of Medicine).

So in Years 3-6, you’re no longer charged per credit hour. You’re charged one flat rate for the entire semester for all the hours you take that particular semester. So for this year, for the regular fall and spring semesters, SOM in-staters paid $11,828.90 each semester, regionals paid $17,377.60, and out-of-staters paid $22,924.50. And yes, even for your Year 4 campus semester in which you go back to the Volker campus and take undergraduate classes to finish your degree, you still pay the School of Medicine flat rate. You don’t go back to being charged per credit hour.

The same concepts apply when you enroll in the summer semesters in the program.

Is there a need for a car during year 1? If so, why? If not, why not? @Roentgen

@2022md,

So in the fall semester of Year 1, it’s not absolutely necessary to have your own car at UMKC. For Year 1 Docent (Fundamentals of Medicine – colloquially called “Fundies”, lol), no matter where your specific hospital might be, everyone on your 10-12 person team usually splits up into smaller groups with whoever has brought a car (usually those who are in-state have done so) and those riding as passengers to Docent are (read: should be) courteous enough to pay for gas, etc. for rides to Docent on Tuesday and Thursday mornings for the semester and even the whole year. As people start bringing their cars within the group, it’s not necessary for that same person to drive, so people can alternate. As you know, all Year 1s are required to live at the dorms, no exceptions.

That being said, I do think you should bring your own car for several reasons, although it doesn’t have to necessarily be in August: to get to learn the layout of the city (unlike other major cities that you might be used to that are more cut like a square grid in terms of their streets, Kansas City’s streets and highways can sometimes loop around more, be more hilly, and they also tend to have a lot more one way streets or traffic lights where there is no protected green light arrow to make a turn - so you have to wait for oncoming traffic to clear before turning, esp. in inner city KC etc.), see the fun things that are available that the city has to offer, restaurants, close by grocery stores and amenities, etc. That’s much harder to do when you don’t have a car to go on your own schedule and are relatively “stuck” at the dorms, although people are usually nice enough to do group grocery rides, when needed. Also, in that first semester, outside of Anatomy lab class, Year 1 BA/MD students tend to go to the Media Center at the med school to work with the anatomy models, look at histology slides on the tvs, etc. for more practice: http://med.umkc.edu/memc/. There is also a UMKC shuttle which goes there as well starting from the dorms: http://www.umkc.edu/transportation/

Another reason is you want to learn and get practice with driving when it starts to ice and snow (especially if you’re from a place that doesn’t have those things – i.e. California). Sometimes it starts in early or late December, other times it won’t be until after you come back in January for the spring semester. That just takes practice (no way to get around it) so if you don’t have a car then, then you have to learn during Year 2, when your workload increases. A lot of people brought their cars in after the winter break into that second semester, just because you have an extended time to drive up your car from home, after you’ve gotten a good foothold during that first semester in terms of balancing studying, academics, fun, etc.

By the time Year 1 is over, you want to know KC like the back of your hand heading into Year 2, especially when you leave the dorms and move out into apartments, and you have the most time to reasonably do that during Year 1 (although it may not feel like it sometimes), to really get comfortable with driving in KC.

@Roentgen, We have been in Missouri for the last 20 years and my daughter graduated from a Missouri high-school. and is admitted as an in-state student. However, it appears that we may have to move out-of-state this year (even before the Fall semester starts, though I may be able to delay until that). Does it mean she will have to pay out-of-state tuition?

From the UMKC web-site, it appears that if the student graduated from Missouri High-School and enrolls in the following fall at UMKC, they are considered in-state as long as they don’t take any break from enrollment. Is it true for School of Medicine too? When I called them, they said she will be in-state because she will be living in Kansas City, but that alone does not appear to be the deciding criteria. Do you have any information on this?

Thanks again for all the help you provide.

@NewUser25,

Where are you seeing the criteria? I’m looking here: http://www.umkc.edu/admissions/university-of-missouri-residence-rules.html – “7. Graduates of Missouri High Schools. A graduate of a high school located in Missouri, whose parents (or legally appointed guardian or custodian) are residents of Missouri at the time of the student’s graduation from high school and whose initial registration at the University occurs at the beginning of the next academic term, excluding summer terms, following graduation from high school, is presumed to be a Missouri resident so long as he or she remains continuously enrolled in the University of Missouri.”

So as far as I’m seeing, she will pay in-state tuition based on that criteria alone. Are you seeing something different somewhere else?

@Roentgen , that was my understanding too. Thanks. I wanted to confirm this is true for School of Medicine also, so called them. They said she will be in-state, but the reason they gave was that she will be staying in Kansas City. They did not appear to be aware of the above rule.

Thanks again for your help.

@NewUser25, yes, the School of Medicine has to go by the same residency rules that are applied to everyone else for the main university. The med school can’t create out of thin air their own residency rules just for themselves since that is handled at the state level. In the past, it used to be that for out-of-state students, the School of Medicine would lock you in, and make you sign an agreement saying you agreed to pay non-resident tuition for the entire time you were in the program, before you matriculated into Year 1. I believe that no longer exists now, because of some threat of possible lawsuit by students’ parents (completely unverified by me, just what I’ve heard thru the grapevine), since it was felt that if the main university felt you were a resident later, then you should be able to pay in-state tuition, regardless of whether you’re in a BA/MD program or not.

If it really becomes that big of an issue, she could just move to UMKC in the summer semester and take some general ed classes or Chem I + Lab (she’ll get credit and GPA). So then her permanent address upon matriculation would still be your current address and she’d already be consecutively enrolled. But in terms of registration, residency status type of stuff that you were asking, all of that will be handled by the main Volker university campus at the Administrative Center on Oak Street, since those are the people and infrastructure in place who put together, print out, and mail you your tuition bill, not the medical school.

Hey guys! I’m a current first year in the program (soon to be second year) with a free room to rent out over the summer, so if any new first years are looking to take chem 1 or soc, etc. over the summer, send me a private message on here! Rent is $650 a month + electricity and gas, rent covers water, trash, etc. There is a parking space, 5 min drive to volker campus, 5 min drive to hospital hill.