Is anyone going to the admitted students reception on April 24th?
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know anybody who is rejecting their offer in-state?
@Watang I will say that I know people accepted in state who are still deciding (some more 50-50, others more 80% sure they’ll accept). They’ve been accepted into pretty nice programs out of state, so they’re still weighing options.
@Watang, yeah, to add further to what @farehahasan said, it really isn’t a slam dunk decision for in-staters, like some might think it would be. UMKC BA/MD tuition in the first 2 years is still relatively expensive for in-staters (realize that is even after in-staters’ parents have been subsidizing MO public higher education for years thru taxes) compared to the traditional college route. Just as an example, 4 years of undergraduate in-state tuition at MO’s state flagship university, Mizzou, is still cheaper than 2 years of BA/MD in-state tuition at UMKC, without even taking into account any financial aid given.
http://admissions.missouri.edu/costs-and-aid/costs/
http://www.sfa.umkc.edu/site2/forms/coa/Resident-(BA-MD).pdf
Especially if they’ve been accepted to other combined programs at other places, in Missouri or outside of the state, or have gotten really great financial aid packages, it really requires looking at things carefully this month for students and families. Based on the questions asked by parents and students at this year’s Q&As on interview day, I think families are really giving the combined program a much harder look in terms of what it can do for them and what compromises they’re willing to be ok with. Not trying to give you false hope, by any means, but just saying it’s not as simple as in-state acceptance = automatic matriculation. Students these days have some really great educational options, that even I’m quite envious of. lol.
Watang it’s not the end of the world- although it may feel like it. This is not the only path to becoming a doctor, and not the easiest, most prestigious etc.
I’m now wondering if I should have wished for my daughter to get accepted.
@zuchinicakes, if it’s one thing I really wish applicants (and their parents) could see is that UMKC is not this “dream” program that people tend to make it out to be. No combined Bachelor/MD program is, save for very few select programs. Every single combined program, and even just undergrad programs, will have positives, negatives, and compromises you will have to make, although in certain special instances (i.e. Northwestern HPME, UPitt GAP, Rice/Baylor Med Scholars, Miami HPME, etc.), the positives will GREATLY outweigh the negatives and any educational compromises you’d be making. This is, of course, with the major assumption being that you only wish to be a physician, and could see yourself as nothing else, including having thoroughly and assuredly ruled out tracks which allow you to practice medicine with much less delayed gratification (and less debt) – PA or NP, for example. This will be more and more relevant on a patient level, once Obamacare is fully implemented.
In fact there was a media article recently out about whether medical school is worth it for women financially: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/is-medical-school-a-worthwhile-investment-for-women/260051/ – with the major contributor being that women, overall, tended to work less hours than their male counterparts, as they have other factors to consider – wanting to have and raise children, etc. By the way that’s not at all a bad thing, I’m just pointing out that women tend to find personal fulfillment in their lives by so much more than just getting a paycheck or a job. And in medicine, this is no different.
I’m definitely not talking about anyone here, but more in general terms, and maybe it’s just a reflex on my part, but I really tend to cringe inside, whenever people label UMKC as this “dream” program of theirs, as more often than not, that hinges on the 6 year aspect and the MCAT aspect, when there is so much more to evaluating med schools than just that. Now, I guess you could say, “That’s very easy for you to say now! You’re a physician!” True. But I also have the benefit of hindsight, personal experience, and observation of my friends and classmates as I went thru the program, and old friends who did the normal route as 99% of students do. I’ve gone thru the med school, I’ve gone thru the residency application process, etc. so I know what things factor into those later steps, and sometimes with a combined program, depending on which one, you’re compromising early on, on factors that can impact how the later steps play out. The people I knew who saw the combined program as their “dream” program as sort of the panacea to everything in their lives or that it would make their lives so much better, tended to be very much disappointed later. This program is only really made well for a particular type of person, both in terms of specialties being considered, but also very much in terms of expectations and perceptions they bring to the table on different aspects.
@Roentgen I’m an OOS student accepted to the class of 2022. I was wondering which specific AP credit would be useful for a biology degree path. Also, how does a liberal arts degree compare with a biology degree?Thanks!
Hey @2022md, please see my previous post discussing this here: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19519823/#Comment_19519823. Hopefully it answers what you’re asking. If not, I can expand further on it.
@Roentgen Is that all the AP work accepted in the BA/MD program? How about AP credit for General education courses?
You can see all the AP exams that are accepted by UMKC for credit here: http://www.umkc.edu/registrar/transfer-credit/#anchor-2, and the specific courses, credit hours, and applicable UMKC core you will receive credit for. In my post, I only listed the AP exams that are directly applicable to the required courses listed in the 3 BA/MD major maps. For example, coming in with credit for the AP Biology exam will give you credit for Biology 102 (a course for non-biology majors), but it will be completely useless when it comes to the Bio BA degree, since it does not give you any credit for General Biology I + Lab (Bio 108 & Bio 108L), so I didn’t list it.
I don’t know what you mean by General education courses, as there are quite a few AP exams that I listed that go towards the General Education core: http://www.umkc.edu/core/, i.e. Discourse I, Focus A, Focus B, Focus C, etc. They are included as part of the major map.
@Roentgen Thank you so much for all ur help! So if ur getting a bio degree in the bs/md program, the APs u listed earlier are the only useful ones?
Does anyone know if the Single rooms in oak place residence hall have shared or individual bathrooms?
Does anyone know how many percentage of the accepted students is the transferred student?
My daughter has been admitted to the program and is trying to decide whether to accept. She has good scores in ACT (high 30s) and honors science classes. She does not have any strong likes/dislikes including science classes, though she has good work habits and does well in almost all her activities. She did lot of volunteering/shadowed doctors, likes the service aspect of the profession, but is not 100% sure of the Medical Degree, but at the same time hesitant to pass up the opportunity.
Is 100% passion necessary to succeed in this program and to avoid burnout? If one does not have it right now, is it a mistake to enter the program?
Based on what I can see directly on the Biology major map thru the BA/MD program for 2015-2016, yes. The only semesters in the BA/MD program in which you can take undergraduate level courses are:[ul]
[]Fall Semester Year 1
[]Spring Semester Year 1
[]Summer Semester Year 2
[]Fall Semester Year 2
[li]Fall or Spring Semester Year 4 Campus[/ul][/li]although if you amass enough undergraduate credit hours thru testing and taking classes at UMKC in Years 1 & 2, you can later petition to have a summer campus instead, rather than a full Fall or Spring campus in Year 4.
Since you’re thinking of doing Bio in the BA/MD program, this might actually be a little easier to read, than the major map on the main website: https://sbs.umkc.edu/documents/FS2014handbook.pdf. Go to the page labeled 49 at the bottom, titled “Major Map: BA Biology (Medicine) Catalog Year: 2015-2016” at the top. Just remember, in order to qualify to do the Bio degree thru the combined program, you have to come in with credit for either General Chem I + Lab (AP exam, IB exam, or college/university transfer credit) OR General Bio I + Lab (college/university transfer credit).
Ok, so @NewUser25, you asked, “Is 100% passion necessary to succeed in this program and to avoid burnout? If one does not have it right now, is it a mistake to enter the program?”
I would say for all intents and purposes, yes, it is necessary, and yes, it would be a mistake to enter this program, if one does not have it right now. Let me explain why and how. You have to have the passion not only to do medicine, but specifically choosing the physician pathway (vs. a Nurse Practitioner or Physician Assistant pathway), in which there are a lot more hoops involved and delayed gratification to become a fully practicing “provider” in the United States – that’s college (2-4) + med school (4) + residency (3-7 depending on residency specialty) + fellowship (1-3, if you decide to do this). And in order to be a fully practicing “provider”, as a physician, you have to have completed a specific residency, as the MD is useless without one, in terms of practicing clinically. That’s much different than other fields, in which there is no required residency involved. The program itself isn’t really structured in a way to “create” that inherent passion for you, if that makes sense. For example, I knew people who liked Year 1 & 2 Docent, but hated Year 5 clerkships, when that’s the real deal, although in select specialties. But by Year 5, it’s obviously way too late to backtrack then if you realize you don’t really like day-to-day clinical medicine and how it’s practiced currently. This path in this program assumes you have ruled out other quite viable healthcare pathways, whether that’s Dentistry, Optometry, Physical Therapy, etc. or any field not in healthcare - Accounting, Investment Banking, IT, etc.
Now is this all a reasonable expectation for someone at 18 years old to have ruled all these things out meticulously? In reality, probably not, even for the most high achieving and academically strong, due to the large lack of real life experience. Although there will be few in which this is the only goal for them, and nothing else will make them happy. But for most people, if we’re truly being honest with ourselves, we usually tend to have varied interests and can think of several professions which will make us happy both in terms of intellectual fulfillment and salary, or at the very least, at least pique our interest initially, after which one would explore it more thru shadowing to rule it in or out during college.
Please see the article I cited above regarding women and medical school, in terms of the economics based on research data. I liked this video actually comparing the MD to the PA field, for example, http://www.andreatooley.com/2015/02/md-vs-pa/. She has a great blog for people interested in the medical field, she’s currently an Ophthalmalogy resident at Mayo. I think would it would be helpful, especially to women, who are deciding whether becoming a physician is really worth it, esp. since there is a lot of investment financially, emotionally, time, etc.
I would not enter the program with the attitude of, “Well I really love science and learning science in school, so it’s only natural that I’ll end up liking the practice of clinical medicine.” One is kind of related to the other, but they’re not congruent. They are really very different experiences - as the “culture” of clinical medicine, esp. in academic medical centers in which most of your training will occur, is different than what many students imagine or see when they’re shadowing in the private practice world. If you look at the curriculum plans in this particular BA/MD program, there are a lot of “steps” that are skipped in terms of time, certain coursework, and standardized testing (one of the many standardized tests you’ll still take in this profession) for 1 pre-decided path. Much different than other BA/MD programs, in which you fully concentrate on the undergraduate work only during the first 2-4 years of the program, and it is fully tranferrable to other universities without lost time or need to redo coursework, if you change your mind.
All this being said, I would say your daughter has about 1 year to decide in the program, without a huge investment made as to whether it’s worth it, without having to redo reams of coursework. See my post above: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19512478/#Comment_19512478.
@2022md, you can see the floor plans here: http://info.umkc.edu/housing/housing/oak-street-hall/, look under room layouts. You can click on the pictures to magnify it. The single rooms obviously have one individual bathroom.
@Roentgen, thanks for taking the time to reply. My daughter’s worry is more along the lines of not being able to handle course load. She shadowed doctors and likes clinical practice (though unwilling to use the word ‘passionate’ about it) and the service aspect of practicing medicine. But honors-AP chemistry/biology classes in High School had been a drag for her, although her grades were OK (Chemistry:B, Biology: A).
She is not particularly passionate about any subject, but is generally successful on all of them and has good work ethic, even when the subject is kind of boring for her.
What would be your advice for her? Do you need to be 100% INTO science classes to be successful in this program and in the future as a doctor?
@NewUser25, I think your daughter’s concern is a very valid one regarding being able to handle the course load. Part of the problem, which I’ve mentioned previously in the thread regarding the BA/MD curriculum, is that there isn’t this smooth level of graduated difficulty in science coursework that occurs in the program, starting from freshman year, in contrast to other combined Bachelor/MD programs out there. It’s very jerky and choppy. One moment you’re in Year 1 taking undergraduate General Chem II + Lab and introductory Microbiology + Lab, and the next moment in Year 2, as a college sophomore, you’re already jumping into medical school level courses in Biochemistry in the fall and Gross Anatomy and Physiology in the spring. Even in the best taught AP science courses in high school, they can only prepare you so much in terms of getting used to the level of increased detail, study/organizational/time management skills needed to be successful in upper-level undergraduate science courses, much less medical school basic science courses, and that’s not even their intended purpose, since AP courses are to prepare you, and potentially get credit for, introductory college courses. Doesn’t help when you’re paying the SOM rate vs. the undergraduate rate, either.
I do think there are a lot of inherent assumptions made about BA/MD students incoming science knowledge base or it’s assumed that we’ll be able to pick it up very quickly. Thus, BA/MD students do not take foundational undergraduate courses like General Biology I & II, Physics I & II, etc. And I think that’s fine in theory, but in reality, for quite a few of our students, based on what I’ve observed, especially those coming from rural high schools who don’t necessarily have ready access to AP science courses like students coming from cities do, not having had those initial building blocks to build a good science foundation can make later coursework like Cell Bio, Genetics, Biochem, HSF, etc. a little harder, esp. in the summer semesters. IMHO, having those foundational courses can be very much to our benefit (and we’ve been told this by undergraduate science faculty), not just because of course content that can be built upon later (i.e. Bio 202 and Bio 206 building on information taught in Bio 108 and 109), but because of the natural learning process of slowly getting acclimated to more complex & detailed material in upper level undergraduate courses that are harder than introductory courses, but not magnitudes harder (like jumping from an undergraduate BIO course to a med school level BMS course would be), so it isn’t such a huge shock to your system. It also allows you to slowly and thoroughly adjust and revise your own study, organizational, and time management skills, etc. without it being so high stakes. And to add to all of this, in the BA/MD program you are very restricted in terms of undergraduate course selection due to only being allowed to take undergrad courses in certain specific semesters, and because of credit hour limits per semester. The problem is realistically, it’s very difficult to insert those additional foundational classes in the 6 year program, when we’re already at capacity and taking 2 science courses (some with labs) each semester.
You said your daughter shadowed doctors and likes clinical practice, though unwilling to use the word “passionate” about it. I think this shows for sure that she likes the day-to-day practical side of the field or at the very least, likes some career in healthcare (a lot of it is also allure, since the experience feels so new to high school students), but this can be achieved as an end goal in many ways, not just by going thru medical school like it used to be (physicians no longer have a monopoly when it comes to seeing patients - both in primary care and specialty care). Also, I couldn’t get from your statement, but realize that liking medicine when you shadow from 9 to 5 and then get to go home, is a little different than liking medicine when it’s 4 am in the morning, or when you’re on call, or as a resident when you’re doing it all the time and working 80+ hours a week, etc. So lifestyle may very much be an important factor, which is something that may not seem important to a person in high school or college, but will become important to you later as you progress thru med school and eventually get married, want to have and raise children, etc. So it’s important that your daughter have realistic and reasonable expectations as to what the lifestyle of being a physician can offer on average, vs. say being a PA, NP, dentist, optometrist, etc. My guess is your daughter may have been shadowing more in outpatient specialties or in private practice, or has she shadowed at academic medical center hospitals and in inpatient specialties, as well?
The thing with medical school is that this particular route is very heavy on science, in terms of coursework, information, and depth, even more so than some other healthcare tracks, at least in the first 2 years of a “traditional” medical school, which culminates in taking USMLE Step 1. I think one thing that is a commonality of people in this combined program, and those who successfully graduate from it, is the inherent “nerd” factor, of liking science more than your average high schooler. Actually finding the material very interesting or applicable, makes the hours of studying the detail much more bearable but would be misery-inducing if you don’t really like science to begin with. Do you have to be 100% into science classes in terms of the daily practice of a future doctor? Probably not, in the practical sense. But in terms of getting thru those first 4 years of the program, yes. So if she’s already thinking AP Chem and AP Bio were a drag (although it could be because of a bad teacher and the way they teach), it could be a harbinger later of what’s to come. It could also be an adjustment period (as all AP science courses can be in high school), and she’ll like them more if she were to take those courses again in her freshman year of college, in which they’ll be retreading the same material.
It’s kind of hard to extrapolate future likes from high school academic performance in these type of kids, because they’re already so high achieving to begin with, so they’ll push through it regardless, even if it’s not of interest to them or is boring, just due to pure hard work ethic, determination and grit, for class rank purposes or for applying to colleges. That’s much harder to do later when you’re in a professional school that veers towards a particular lifelong career track.
Is your daughter in-state, regional, or out-of-state? Depending on if she’s in-state or not, she could do the Guaranteed Admissions and have a normal first year, which the undergraduate courses would transfer anywhere if she changed her mind, or if she’s regional/out-of-state, she could still decide after 1 year of having experienced Year 1 Docent.
Knowing your daughter the best, do you think your daughter would feel like she’s giving up on some major opportunity, and might end up feeling remorse/regret later for not doing the 6 year program? I guess I’m asking if she is someone who might not be able to put it out of her mind completely, once turning it down, when going into her freshman year. You can still post in the thread here, as I think it will benefit a lot of parents and students who are going thru the exact same thing. If she is that type, then I see no real harm in trying out the program for 1 year, finding out all the ins and outs, before deciding to leave or transfer. The only drawback might be financial aid that is offered as part of a freshman package, might not be offered if she transferred in later to the same school, but this very much varies by institution. You and your daughter are also free to PM me, as well as of course, posting on the thread. Great questions!!!
My concerns are much the same as @NewUser25 .
What is guaranteed admission?