<p>My D got into UNC honors program but she will receive no scholarship and no Financial Aid from UNC. EFC is too high. She was offered scholarship and some financial aid at U of Chicago. Bottom line 37K at UNC 43K at U of Chicago. I have a feeling she is a better fit of U of Chicago but like the UNC price tag better. However, given the gap is only 6K, I would like to hear your opinions. She wants to study English followed by graduate school in London. At least this is the plan right now.</p>
<p>Yikes; UNC and U Chicago are two completely different schools. Different vibe, different atmosphere, quintessential college town vs large city, etc. Has your daughter visited both schools? What did she think of each?</p>
<p>HJi,
Yes, she visited both schools and loved them both. Hence, the dilemna. She likes the opportunities a both schools. The campuses each have there own benefits. She is not a party person so we think she would be a better fit at Chicago. Not that we feel UNC is in a constant party state, lol. At the same time, the school spirit at UNC was much better. Also, the dorm situation at Chicago seemed to be more her style with single room options. We didn’t like the suite accomodations at UNC (8 girls sharing one bathroom)</p>
<p>There couldn’t be two more different schools. As a parent of a UNC grad and someone (me) who has a graduate degree from U of Chicago I can speak with some authority here. I loved my time at U of C but being in grad school is a VERY different experience than being an undergrad there. </p>
<p>In all honesty, the grad school in London part doesn’t need to be a factor in your decision making process just as how good an affiliated med school doesn’t need to be part of an undergrad school decision. She can get into any grad school anywhere with a degree from either place.</p>
<p>The big questions should be about “fit” and where she feels she will be happiest. My son went to a private all boys school and graduated in a class of 82. He had some classes during his senior year of HS with 6 or 7 students in them. Knowing how well he thrived in that environment I made sure that we visited U of C because of the teaching style in place there. To be honest he liked it more than he thought he would (based on preconceived notions) but said he really couldn’t see himself there after he had had enough time to consider everything.</p>
<p>Right or wrong the school has garnered the reputation of being “the place where fun goes to die” and tends to attract (at the undergrad level) many students who help to keep the reputation going strong. That’s not to say that students don’t have any fun but I know of several recent grads who (much to the chagrin of their parents) hardly ever ventured off campus to enjoy all the delights that Chicago has to offer. To me that’s unconscionable.</p>
<p>I think you need to determine what type of undergrad experience your D wants to have. If she wants to be in what is practically a 24/7 " think tank" then Chicago is a great choice. Many of the kids at U of C could be described as “intense”…that’s not necessarily bad but is that what she is looking for?</p>
<p>If she wants to be around very bright kids who will consistently challenge her thinking but be far less competitive (in a good way) and far more cooperative but still know how to relax and have some fun then UNC probably is the better choice. It’s somewhat hackneyed or cliched but UNC students are proud of their own mantra of “work hard, play hard.” Play hard does not need to mean drink and party…my son and some of his friends were known for their marathon sessions of the game “Tabu” where they actually had a room reserved at the Student Union so people could come to watch…</p>
<p>“Fit” is extremely important to academic success. What takes place AFTER classes end can often be as important as what takes place in class and can make or break a successful undergrad experience. Being in Chicago provides an incredible opportunity for exposure to art, theater and music, and a very active bar/social scene…if you have the time, desire and ability to take advantage of it…again why grad school is very different.</p>
<p>Hyde Park is a literal oasis surrounded by one of the grittier areas of Chicago and bears little to no similarity to Chapel Hill other than both being homes to fine institutions of learning. Venturing out of Hyde Park requires either a bus or cab during the day and a cab is highly recommended for the night. You don’t want to be very far off campus even in a group after dark.</p>
<p>Some dorms at U of C are old hotels located far off campus near the Museum of Science and Industry. Not all dorms at UNC require sharing a bath with 8 people.</p>
<p>Aside from what she wants to major in, what has she expressed about how she wants her her whole college experience to be? For example, if she thinks the school spirit issue is significant, don’t undervalue that. I think the answer to these questions will help you sort through the decision a little easier. Please PM me if you have any more questions.</p>
<p>Good luck…they are both great choices…very different but great nonetheless.</p>
<p>UNC all the way—great teachers, a highly prestigious honors college/classes, delicious food at rams head and pit, granville towers are sick dorms, super school spirit (carolina fever), awesome colors, and much much more…UChicago…eh well they dont have that that ;)…UNC-CH was my very close second choice but i got into my dream school so i’m going to cornell!</p>
<p>Good luck with your choice,
but, they probably will look better in tarheel blue : )</p>
<p>My son graduated from UC in 08. He absolutely loved it. He was challenged intellectually and had lots of fun socially. He is not a sports kid so that wasn’t important to him, but he wanted easy access to urban environment and he and his friends explored Chicago extensively on weekends. Generally speaking, it is what it claims to be–a school about ideas–the so called life of the mind. My son, who double majored in English and Classics, finally found his crowd of smart, wacky, clever kids who were equally conversant with Shakespeare, Marx, Family Guy, Virginia Wolf, the Simpsons, and Bob Dylan. The whole thing about “where fun went to die” is a stupid cliche and not true. there are lots of social kids there who know how to have fun, but after a night of partying they may get together for brunch and the New York Times. Last, the core curriculum is the 8th wonder of the world. </p>
<p>My second son chose Oberlin over UC because he wanted engaged learners but in a culture of music and creative arts. Oberlin was the right school for him. My third is looking at Northwestern, Duke and Vandy–he’s a work hard play hard kid who wants sports around him.</p>
<p>bottom line: it is all about fit. The English program at UC is about as good as it gets.</p>
<p>In UChicago’s defense, the “where fun goes to die” motto is an exaggeration that is, for the most part, an inside joke between UChicago students themselves. I have 2 friends at UChicago right now and they both think that it’s “really not that bad at all”–including the one who partied (in the traditional, alcohol-consuming sense) quite a bit in high school. Still, “not that bad” pales compares to UNC’s social scene. That said, you have to remember that the student body creates the social scene. If UChicago doesn’t have as any parties going on on Thursday nights, that’s because the students are staying in to study. Some students and parents think of that as a deprived college experience; others view it as the epitome of a college education.</p>
<p>I have very little constructive to add, except…</p>
<p>I can’t see ANYONE “fitting” both of these schools. They are polar opposites. Your daughter must fit in one or the other, and I think the differences between the two are drastic enough that finances should not be the deciding factor.</p>
<p>I can see someone fitting in both those schools. I love the city but also love college campuses and college towns. I was like that at 18 as well. Both are great choices. In my household, 6K over 4 years is kind of a big deal. I think of UC as better for graduate studies and UNC, especially honors, better for undergraduate studies. That’s just speculation though.</p>
<p>If she wants to work overseas, especially right out of college, she should go for Chicago. UNC is respected, especially in the southern US, but Chicago is a globally prominent university.</p>
<p>Of course lifestyle is important. However, academically, U of Chicago is in a different and better league than UNC.</p>
<p>They are two VERY different worlds. </p>
<p>As a grad school alum I have the highest respect for U of C; when I was there my department was clearly the top department in the US if not the world for the chosen field of study. It had as professors, people like Leo Strauss and his proteges who not only influenced but created entire schools of thought that are in place today. </p>
<p>[Leo</a> Strauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss]Leo”>Leo Strauss - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>That said, undergrads got the trickle down but were never directly exposed to those people. I personally wanted a more well rounded undergrad experience and went to a wholly different school for undergrad that had NCAA sports and a far more active social scene. Like Harvard, U of C is an intellectual playground for grad and professional students but along the lines of what OldWell said, I really think that many (not all) at U of C would not find UNC a good fit but at the same time there are still some who easily could fit in at both schools.</p>
<p>It all comes down to what one wants their undergrad experience to be…if they want a more well rounded experience they can always go to U of C for grad school and then see and experience the REAL benefits U of C.</p>
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<p>She can work overseas graduating from either school…plenty of UNC alum do it every year. </p>
<p>UNC is well respected far outside just the southern US. I am not a student putting out an opinion but rather someone who is out in the workforce who in a previous job worked in senior management for a large international company that recruited at UNC, UVA along with the Ivies and a few other private schools. We always had great success with their grads many of whom have gone on to top positions globally within the company or in peer companies.</p>
<p>Many of the world’s most successful and wealthiest people do not have Ivy or private school educations. It’s time to stop the elitism that’s rearing its head.</p>
<p>Eadad I didn’t mean to suggest that one couldn’t work overseas (or outside the southern US) with an UNC degree-- that would obviously be false.</p>
<p>I was just voicing the (uncontroversial, or so I thought) claim that, if someone were applying for a (say) investment banking job in Frankfurt or Shanghai right after graduation, they’d be better off with a globally-recognised degree from Chicago, than with an UNC degree, since UNC is more nationally or regionally prominent.</p>
<p>Not that the UNC person won’t get the job, of course, but that Chicago will give them an edge.</p>
<p>Your claim that </p>
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<p>is a true, but a bit of a red herring. Yes, most of the people at the very top didn’t have a top degree. But in terms of trying to maximise one’s chances of doing well, that is not statistically relevant.</p>
<p>Thank you for all your great comments. It confirms that both schools have great strengths. By the way, one of the appealing features of UNC for my daughter was that it is affiliated with Kings College in London, one of her graduate school interests. She would be able to do a semester or two there as an undergraduate. However, we are aware that U of C as well as other schools have great study abroad programs. Finally, the 6K is an issue, that’s an additional 24K and maybe more with tuition increases. Although debt will be inevitable, we are trying to keep it as low as possible as she will need loans for graduate school.</p>
<p>Especially if money is tight, I would strongly urge you/daughter not to study abroad. Frankly, it’s just a (horribly) expensive vacation, in most cases.</p>
<p>The only exception might be where there are certain scholarships on offer where studying abroad is actually cheaper than spending that semester at the home university. That’s pretty rare though, studying abroad often costs an extra $5-$10k.</p>
<p>Think what a vacation you could get for that money – you could spend the whole summer in Paris or backpacking around Asia. </p>
<p>Now, you might say that studying abroad is ‘living’ in another country and studying there, and thus better than just being a tourist. Well, not really. Especially most UNC study abroad programs, probably Chicago too, are just horribly expensive organised vacations: the home university sorts out everything, the student doesn’t find her own apartment, pay her own bills, make her own friends, anything. And Americans on these programs hunt in packs, cameras in hand.</p>
<p>Studying abroad shouldn’t be a factor in choosing a uni. It is a completely different experience to actually living in a foreign country (in most cases), and she’d get so much more out of it by not studying abroad, and instead doing her graduate work elsewhere.</p>
<p>Though if your daughter is any good, she won’t need loans for graduate school. In the humanities, anyone who departments like will get funding (though this is often tougher to come by for foreigners).</p>
<p>I know that King’s has money for humanities grad students. If they don’t offer you any, then that’s a sign that you’re probably not good enough. These can be harsh words to hear, but the plus side is that if your daughter is any good (like, top grad school good) at English, she won’t have to worry about funding it.</p>
<p>You’re urging someone not to study abroad and take a vacation instead? Are you serious?</p>
<p>How about whatever your daughter attends, if study abroad is important to her, she makes an appointment with the Global Education center at UNC or whatever relevant office at Chicago.</p>
<p>At UNC, for most OOS students, study abroad here is actually cheaper than a regular semester, though that’s partly dependent on what country you go to. That might be why we’re the top public university when it comes to study abroad (I’m pretty sure that’s based off of percentage of student body going abroad).</p>
<p>What information are you even basing this on, keepittoyourself? If someone wants to make their own friends while they’re abroad, they step outside. For someone who claims to be rational you certainly shy away from citing sources, don’t you?</p>
<p>“Americans on these programs hunt in packs, cameras in hand.” What are you even implying here? Am I supposed to get ****ed off at someone studying abroad who, oh my sweet Lord, wants to remember their experience? How does this have anything to do study abroad, anyway? Though I’m not going to make a tu quoque argument here it is obvious and odd to me that you would make an argument against going abroad when you clearly have not done so with UNC.</p>
<p>“If your daughter is any good” - you mean if this person’s daughter graduates at the top of her program at whatever university she goes to, kicks tail at GREs, and does not apply to any UC (California) schools within the next fifteen years, right? Because that’s the reality of the situation.</p>
<p>I believe that you’re a student here, but get real. Though of course it would be silly for a student to make a decision on what university to attend based off of what they read in a forum where anyone can participate, you certainly don’t represent Carolina very well.</p>
<p>To the OP - My biggest deterrent towards Chicago was not the reputation that it was where fun goes to die (though that wasn’t necessarily the best thing to hear about it) but rather the weather. If your daughter has ANY negativity towards cold or darkness then that’s something serious to consider.</p>
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<p>Yes, I am serious. I know this is hard to believe, but if you think for yourself, you might form opinions that go against the prevailing consensus. Seriously.</p>
<p>I think study abroad, at least as most people do it, is a vacation. Just a hugely expensive one.</p>
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<p>No argument here.</p>
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<p>Again, no argument here – it can be a good ideal if it really is cheaper. On the other hand, you are paying less but you are learning less (ask most study abroad people what they actually learnt in the classroom whilst they were away).</p>
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<p>This isn’t a dissertation, citing sources would be a bit over the top, no? I’m basing this on years of experience, that’s all I’m willing to say. You can believe me or not – but try asking someone who studied abroad, especially in an European city. Did they make real friends with locals, or did they hang out with people from other American universities in the ‘international’ ghetto/dorm?</p>
<p>Hell, even look at their facebook photos. You’ll find a ton of people from the university of wisoconsin, and wash u or whatever. Not too many people from country X.</p>
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<p>The criticism of the American groups was not that they have cameras. It was that they ‘hunt in packs’ – go to most European cities where there are Americans studying abroad, and you will find that the American study abroaders associate almost entirely with each other. They traipse around in large groups enjoying the younger drinking age, and taking photos in front of famous places.</p>
<p>And that’s fine – for a vacation. Because that’s what it is.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are exceptions to this, but in my experience only a small proportion of Americans studying abroad at a given university will actually associate with the students of that university.</p>
<p>It’s best to think of it as something like a Rick Steves organised tour of the country: you pay more, but you get everything organised for you. The people who really ‘live’ in the country are the ones who organised it all for themselves, and found an apartment, etc. Or the ones who are actually enrolled at the foreign university. Those people are probably paying a whole lot less, and getting more out of it: I really respect those people.</p>
<p>Actually, what’s obvious to you may not be as obvious as you think. The UNC study abroad program in London, for example, is based out of a dedicated place in West London. UNC students studying abroad in London most certainly do hunt in packs – probably the only time they really associate with British people is when they meet them in pubs. Just like on vacation.</p>
<p>Doing study abroad like this is like going on vacation to Cancun: technically a foreign country, but more like a colony.</p>
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<p>Yes, that is what I mean (though you’re exaggerating about the California schools). At UNC, for example, each humanities department has at least 4 or 5 fully funded phd places a year–that’s where they get their pool of people to badly teach huge numbers of undergraduates.</p>
<p>If you just want to do an MA in the humanities for fun, then yes it will likely cost you money. Probably $50k per year to do it in London-- and you will be treated as a cash cow by the UK university.
This is a totally respectable way to go, and unlike the ‘study abroad people’ you will actually be living in London, and will probably be forced to associate with people in other nationalities.</p>
<p>But if you think you might actually be any good at it, then you should be aiming to get funded.</p>
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<p>I agree about the cold and darkness – though if she’s likely to be spending summers at UNC the weather here is pretty painful too.</p>
<p>Y’all are debating things that are largely unimportant when compared to the hugely important fact that the two schools are drastically different in almost every way.</p>
<p>The vast differences in lifestyles, cultures, student bodies, school spirit, and academic intensity are much more important than marginal differences in percentage of students who study abroad. The schools are not similar.</p>
<p>What cloying, no answer? How disappointing.</p>