UNC+$ vs Ivy: A Debate

<p>Yes, but is a slightly better education worth that much more money?</p>

<p>Rutgers89, just to clarify I was quoting you as saying that Swarthmore is a better school than Rutgers, not that one will get a job over another. Sorry for the confusion, I admittedly know very little about Swarthmore and was taking you word that it was better than Rutgers; I actually think that you can I are in general agreement on this board</p>

<p>

I'm not quite sure what you meant by this. If you mean people in academia regard Brown as a stronger university, your statement is patently false. If you attempt to claim otherwise, I will laugh. :)</p>

<p>If you mean that Brown is better academically than UNC, you'd have to qualify that claim. Brown is usually better for undergraduate education, for example, whereas UNC is better at the graduate level.</p>

<p>Boston,
Okay, my bad... haha.</p>

<p>Diontechristmas,
I don't really think so, but apparently money is not an issue for him... But here's the deal, in terms of pure academics, it might be. Hypothetically if he wanted to study philosophy, lets say and planned to be an academic scholar and possibly take a career path in academia, it would make sense to go to Brown. If not, it would still be better to go to Brown, but not a significance difference...</p>

<p>IBCLASS,
Once again, my comments taking out of context(maybe not I suppose by the tone of it). In terms of academia, I meant at the undergrad level... grad level, not so sure... and would not want to argue for something I know little about.</p>

<p>Undergrad wise, I am not going to argue my premise on this forum, knowing that the premise matches the conclusion(obviously). If you think UNC is better than Brown undergrad, fine.... just another "general" person of the public population that is wrong.</p>

<p>


Eh? If you read my first post on the thread (#6), you'll see that I supported Brown as a great option for the OP. It's an excellent university, and the unusual grading system (no +/-, unlimited pass/fail) combined with the open curriculum would make it an obvious choice for pre-med.</p>

<p>My role on this thread has merely been to point out that UNC is not "Fitchburg State," as cohen139 put it. It is a highly regarded university, and students who bother to take full advantage of its resources (which few really do) could excel there. It is of course not for everyone, and students who would feel more comfortable at a smaller and more comforting college would do well to steer clear.</p>

<p>IB,
I agree with your above post 100%. I apologize if I came off as an as$hole. UNC is an excellent school... But all in all, does it really matter, because the OP doesn't really seem to be to into this? haha</p>

<p>Rutgers89:
" don't really think so, but apparently money is not an issue for him..."
$ is an issue. my parents are not forcing me to go to a cheaper school, but are advocating for it. they say its up to where i fit in best, but to strongly consider the money</p>

<p>and secondly... i am into this discussion ("But all in all, does it really matter, because the OP doesn't really seem to be to into this? haha"). i prefer to only insert my opinion when necessary and instead listen to the advice as the conversation goes on.</p>

<p>"Hypothetically if he wanted to study philosophy, lets say and planned to be an academic scholar and possibly take a career path in academia, it would make sense to go to Brown."</p>

<p>if you look at my OP, youll see that i say premed. i have no interest in philosphy or some other field in which i would remain a professor for the rest of my life. i may teach as part of medicine or another field, but i dont plan on it being my focus</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure that's true, I think most people know that Brown is a better school as it has the stigma of being an Ivy.

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<p>Stigma? Since when is being an Ivy a negative feature?</p>

<p>BTW, beignet, you really do not know if you will end up wanting to go to med school four years from now. You may fall in love with some academic subject and decide to become a professor! Keeping one's options open is always a good idea. Of course, all of the schools you are currently discussing will enable you to do that.</p>

<p>OP, since you're back -- :)</p>

<p>Do YOU notice that YOU are more motivated to do your best work, your most creative thinking, your most productive analysis, when you are fighting to get into the top half of a superlative peer group (top 0.5%), or when you are near the top of a just really good peer group (top 10%) and can see the pinnacle?</p>

<p>The older you get, the more you will realize that internal motivation is one of the most important factors in every decision you make. It's all between the ears, or as they used to say, in the heart.</p>

<p>Are you more motivated as a big fish in a small pond, or a small fish in a big pond? Do you get depressed and lose motivation if you try and try and try and <em>still</em> finish in the middle of your peer group, or does that struggle get you even <em>more</em> determined to figure out how to get to the top quartile going forward?</p>

<p>These are the issues of greater importance to you right now. You will likely find yourself in the middle of the 3rd quartile of your Ivy peer group. You've probably never been below the 95% line in your life, let alone 50%. Will that bring the best out of you, or will is cause you to slide sideways or backward?</p>

<p>Listen dude,
I thought I was premed since I was 8 years old... that changed in the course of 4 months in college. I think you should do what is best for you... you know what will be best for you, and only you can make the decision. I wish you the best of luck, but just remember like the above poster and myself have said... your mind can change very fast when you go to college, a bunch of us here are living proof.</p>

<p>to dunninla, thanks. i have a hard time figuring that out. i mean, currently i go to perhaps the best public school in the state of missouri. i have never been in the top 5% in terms of GPA, but i have always been at the top in terms of test scores. i dont know which would be a better feel for me. i enjoy having peers around me with common interest and devotion to their work. I enjoy study groups as apposed to studying alone sometimes. However, i dont know if this yells out GO TO AN IVY because at UNC, im sure i can find my niche among 17000 undergrads, right? maybe?</p>

<p>to consolation and rutgers, i merely meant to point out that academia is not a immediate concern of mine. sure, i may not be a med student in 4 years, i accept that. but i dont want to choose a college now based on the idea that i MAY have a career in academia. </p>

<p>to Rutgers, i didnt mean to sound harsh, i just wanted to explain the points that you missed may have looked over (mostly the $). but i do understand what youre saying about Brown in academia vs UNC. My dad worked at Brown 13 years/did his undergrad there so i understand their reputation in academia (at least academic medicine).</p>

<p>Hey beignet -- I'll bet your Dad could not get into Brown now!! I certainly could not get into my undergrad... those kids are now all world and I was just all-neighborhood.</p>

<p>haha yeah. his SATs were around 1400, and his reading score was around 600. brown made him take low level english classes to make sure he would be up to speed with the rest of the students. luckily, he applied the engineering school where his math score was heavily weighed</p>

<p>
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i mean, currently i go to perhaps the best public school in the state of missouri.

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<p>That would be one of CHS, LHWHS, or KHS.</p>

<p>diontechristmas: yes i go to one of those</p>

<p>i received a call that i was accepted into the honors program (400 students of each class). does this change things in terms of the comparison? in the honors program, i have access to honors housing in which i can opt to room with another honors student in i think a nicer dorm, and access to honors classes (although all students may have access...) and more tight nit group of ppl on campus</p>

<p>I'd go even without honors.</p>

<p>b - if there is separate housing for Honors students that makes a huge difference. I think it would be annoying and (can) be debilitating to room, eat, and engage in conversation with students who are less focused, less energetic, less intelligent, and less committed to academic and career excellence than you are by a large measure.</p>

<p>That comment is not intended to disparage everyone in the world who is less capable... it's just a fact that our thoughts, attitudes, feelings and (informal) intellectual growth is hugely affected by our immediate peers. Your peer group is Honors at BigU, or Top 20 private. Choose your peers and mentors carefully in life.</p>

<p>
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Out of the academic world, how many people really know which school is an Ivy League school? I live in Massachusetts where most of Ivies are around or close. I can assure you that 99% of people and employers can not correctly tell you more than three Ivies.

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<p>We're not talking about the lay person. We're talking about med school adcoms and they absolutely know the difference between Brown and Dartmouth vs. UNC. There seems to be a misconception that the school you go to doesn't matter for med school admissions. Unevitably, someone will start naming all the people they know from Harvard undergrad who didn't get into a prestigous med school. </p>

<p>Yes, your chances at getting into Harvard Med is low whether you come from a state school or an Ivy League college but they're not equally low. </p>

<p>You can go to Berkeley and have a 1% chance at getting into Harvard Medical School:
Career</a> Center - Medical School Statistics</p>

<p>Or you can go to MIT and have a 9% chance:
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/2007top25.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/preprof/2007top25.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You might say that 9% and 1% are both pretty low but I say MIT students are 9X as successful in getting into top med schools. First, there are the tangible advantages of smaller classes, stronger academic body, more research opportunities, better chances for recommendation letters, better advising. Secondly, from my experience interviewing at med schools (and I interviewed at approx 1/3 out of the top 20 med schools in the country), I would say that students from top colleges are way overrepresented. You'd expect the med school applicants from those colleges to be overrepresented but they are scary overrepresented. </p>

<p>We're sent emails with the schools of every interviewee and this was the breakdown of the schools of interviewees on a random day a few weeks ago:</p>

<p>Yale University
Duke University
Brown University
Harvard University
Stanford University
University of Florida
University of Washington
Johns Hopkins University
Northwestern University
University of California-Berkeley
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of California-Los Angeles
University of Maryland-College Park
Columbia University </p>

<p>This is about the typical ratio of prestigous vs. non-prestigous schools that we typically see on a normal med school interview day. In fact, around 70% of my med school class comes from the top 20 colleges and 30% from the rest of the country combined.</p>

<p>norcalguy- can you say that a school with as good of a premed program as UNC is at THAT much of a disadvantage for the top medical schools? i think those stats might be a bit misleading; it may be that Harvard prefers a fellow Boston area school to a California school. Even if your point is correct, it may not have a lot to do simply with the school that they are from but the caliber of the applicants. </p>

<p>also my dad does interviews & admissions for Wash U med. maybe its because hes my dad, but the only time he makes a distinction between where his applicants are from is in looking at their GPA (ie a 3.8 at an ivy = 3.9 at a pub or something like that). to him, a Michigan grad with a 3.9 and honors is on about an even scale with your columbia grad with a 3.7/3.8</p>

<p>to duninla- i agree with you in many ways, but also i am slightly cautions about taking an honors roomate in the honors dorms. the dorms are on north campus, closer to classes but a ways from south campus where the majority of freshmen are situated. also, my lifestyle is not typical of an "honors college" type student in many ways. I have a lot of near genius friends that would fit into the honors program, but i am not the closest to them because i tend to be less reserved and more socially adventurous. my close friends that are guys are very smart but not necessarily as studious as myself. i am currently weighing the differences.</p>