Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

Parents Forum
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<p>“I’m pretty sure he’ll continue operating at 75%. I should probably be thinking about colleges where a bright kid can operate at that level while getting by mostly on talent.”</p>

<p>This statement may sound harsh…but even at one of the more “non competitive” top 20 schools…there are so many talented kids…the ones giving at least 100% * will leave most of the others in their dust. (Although…some giving less than 100% have trust funds and it won’t really matter what grades they get…so…not really an issue for them! Maybe the case for mantori.suzuki kid…but…I don’t get that impression.)</p>

<p>There will be type A, grade grubbing, stereotypical high achievers, but don’t lump in everyone who gives 100% with that group.</p>

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<p>Re jobs: D has held a paying job (retail) and 2 volunteer jobs. S was always more interested in doing the CTD program (similar to TIP and CTY) but now I’m wondering if that was a mistake and we should have had him get a summer job as well. Obviously too late this summer, but ykwim.</p>

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<p>2boysima, I agree! It’s painting with too broad a brush to say that every kid who succeeds in high school and gets into a T20 school fits that stereotype. Now pre-med students…:)</p>

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<p>2boysima, don’t read too much into my percentages. I just thought it was a convenient way to get across the idea that my son is not a workaholic. I think he can handle himself just about anywhere, but the question is, would he be happy? He had already written off Caltech and MIT because he doesn’t want to live and breath science and technology for four years (even if he could get in, which is far from certain). We’re not sure if there are other schools that are similarly pressurized that he should write off as well.</p>

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<p>Regarding part-time jobs, all I’ve ever heard is that colleges look favorably upon them. They are the very definition of “real-world responsibility,” after all, and success in the real world is ultimately what college is all about. Like PaperChaserPop, I worry that my son hasn’t had a “real” job yet. He had a paid summer internship in a research lab, but it was pretty far from the real world, in my opinion.</p>

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<p>paperchasepop said:</p>

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<p>I’ve no doubt your S1 is uber-smart and may very well be able to even kick up a gear in college, but I don’t think we can assume this behavior in general. When a person has been operating at 30% for FOUR years, doesn’t this form a habit? I mean henceforth it becomes a habitual thing that unless something drastic happens, the same person will continue to want to keep that 70% slack time. I thought most hard-driven Type-A folks tend to keep themselves fully occupied. On the other hand (and may be this is what your S1 is like), if the other 70% is focused on other worthwhile activities with equal fervor, then I can see how the energy can be realigned when the environment changes.</p>

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<p>Well, S1 spent all that spare time and energy reading everything and anything he can lay his hands on in the area of economics and international finance - his passion, but NOT in a way that neatly shows up with demonstrable and “documentable” institutional awards, etc that adcoms love to see. He considered what he did as pure fun, not something he had to strive for - hence, “I am happy because I do fun stuff, while I am not spending a minute worrying about and trying to get good scores and grades” attitude. He had perfect scores and a really dismal EC profile from most adcoms’ point of view - he was soundly rejected by HYP. Yet, this passion of his resulted in a paid internship in a Wall Street firm this summer that began right after he graduated from HS that he got through merit and personal hustling, not by any family connection or introduction. He is a veritable workaholic there, still working this week: all through the summer, while his friends are enjoying the last summer before the college starts, he has been putting in 12 hours a day, five days a week non stop. It’s apparent that he truly enjoys doing it. He says now that that’s same killer instinct he has for the college level work, and he can’t wait to start showing all of his colors. He plans to graduate as one of the top 3 in the top 10 school he is going to this fall, and I wouldn’t put it behind him.</p>

<p>With S2, it’s a same story, but in an entirely different domain. Again, I don’t think he fits the usual profile of what adcoms in highly selective colleges value. He wants to get certification for mountain rescue and search mission. He is studying on line to get an unsupervised hunting permit as a minor (I did not even know that such a thing exists!). He skipped a week in school last spring to participate in a military encampment training and his grade suffered because it happened to be a critical week with a lot of stuff going on in his classes. He does study more than his brother who used to do homework during the recesses and lunch hour, because unlike his brother, he can’t afford to NOT do any studying and get As and Bs. But, is he doing his “utmost best” to get the best grades? No, not even close. Would I relentlessly “encourage” him to do that? No. This is where the leap of faith comes in. I am not sure whether I am doing the right thing in this. Maybe S2 will be better off if I put a bit more pressure so that he ends up, say, Georgetown rather than George Washington. But, I am betting that the sense of ownership and confidence of knowing that his own ability got him at a certain place at a pace comfortable for him will pay dividend on a long term basis. </p>

<p>In the end, like everything else, it’s all about a calculated risk and a leap of faith.</p>

<p>With modern medicine, I believe these kids will live to be 100 and beyond. They have 80+ years to go. Getting to the doorstep to the best college in the world is like running a 100m run. 80 year long marathon is an entirely different story. Though there are undoubtedly many “runners” who will get to the 100m finish line fastest, and then go on to win the marathon to boot, I am betting on a strategy that will ensure that my kids will emerge a “personal” winner in the marathon though they may not win the 100m race. </p>

<p>So, going back to the theme of this thread, will our 3.6 GPA kids exhaust their stored energy making it to a top 20 school and require a quite a down time before they recover enough to continue on to the marathon? Or, will the fastest run time to the 100m finish line give them such a boost that their eventual marathon performance will be greatly enhanced?</p>

<p>This is a $64000 question.</p>

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<p>So for a kid who never had a paid job before, is it better to take a part time job at a local supermarket, or an unpaid research internship at a prestigious lab? This is not meant to be funny. I really would like to know the opinion here.</p>

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<p>How about an unpaid internship at a supermarket? :p</p>

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<p>question:</p>

<p>So for a kid who never had a paid job before, is it better to take a part time job at a local supermarket, or an unpaid research internship at a prestigious lab? This is not meant to be funny. I really would like to know the opinion here.</p>

<p>My answer: </p>

<p>what does your kid want to do? I believe that’s the key. S1 never worked an hour until he started the internship this summer. I never put pressure on him. Economically, making extra $$$ was not a necessity. He chose to spend 20 hours a day at Barnes & Noble and library reading all the books they carried in the field of his interest. I let him. I believe the universal appeal of “character building” aspects of working on a paid low skill job is overrated for the kids who don’t need the lesson of structured activities to keep them anchored. That said, I categorically do NOT dismiss the value of holding down a job, no matter what kind - the sense of “earning one’s keep” is a very empowering, and confidence building one.</p>

<p>I think the choice is your kid’s. For adcoms, the unpaid internship may be worth more. But even so, would you/your kid spend next umpteen months evaluating anything and everything based on what that anonymous adcom may or may not think of it? That sounds rather depressing… Just my two cents.</p>

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<p>hyeonjlee - thanks for your excellent response. </p>

<p>I completely agree with you - life is a marathon, not a sprint. I believe ultimately, a person’s character determines his/her course in life. It is hard to define “success” that’s not associated with outward achievements that are tied to power, social status, material possession, or public esteem, at least in a way for most people to understand and appreciate. I tend to see success as developing the talent you have and use it to benefit humanity to the maximum extent possible while being a loving, kind and trustworthy person. This to me is maturity. </p>

<p>How does this relate to sending my son to a T20? Well, I see the challenges offered in a T20 can push him to develop his potentials faster and deeper. He’ll have more opportunities to see and do more. College is still in the formative stage of his character. If he is up to the challenge (and this I believe is another big $$$ question and we really need to be honest on this one), then a T20 education would be a good passage. Of course, I’m only using T20 as an arbitrary demarcation, it could very well be a T50.</p>

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<p>I’m glad to hear your opinions. It doesn’t seem this way on CC where students are working at research labs (my D’s trying to become a chemistry aide at school while she’s taking AP Chem, and these kids are at research labs? as if there are research labs around every corner??) or interning for members of Congress (please, if I can get S to “intern” as a part time housekeeper by deigning to toss his dirty socks in the hamper, it’s a miracle).</p>

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<p>It is good to remember that if one adds LACs to the mix the top 20 becomes the top 40, the top 50, the top 100, etc.</p>

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<p>I totally get what you’re saying here, but what is the demarcation?? And yes, I know, one can push oneself anywhere. I’ve said that a million times on CC. And the Ivies et al are not the only games in town. I’ve said that a million times too. But somewhere there is some kind of drop-off for smart, generally achieving kids. Where is that?? I know that’s rhetorical, but I struggle with it, which gets back to the “I don’t want you to feel you have to be top 20 or go home, there are many fine schools,” but there is a floor as well. My state flagship is an excellent, well regarded university - but my kids don’t want to be there with all their classmates in a big, rather impersonal setting. And I don’t blame them. And I’ve worked too hard for that to be the default.</p>

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<p>Paperchasepop,</p>

<p>your reason for T20 is exactly why we decided to let S1 turn down a full ride honor program in favor of full pay top 10 school famed for intellectual rigor of their undergraduate education. I am completely with you. </p>

<p>But, I think both of us would agree that that reasoning does not apply to all the kids. there are many different dimensions of intelligence, and “intellectual” aspect is not a singular attribute. My S2’s capabilities and strength are on a different axis than my S1’s. For him, making it to top 20 by any means, I believe, is not a right one if that top 20 school is one he barely makes to by stretching himself like a Chinese body contortionist. </p>

<p>In the end, I believe each parent and each kid should evaluate all the options and see what works out best in the long term. I just know that the best long term strategies for my two sons are not same.</p>

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<p>Fit is important. It’s important when you listen to your kid about not wanting to be in college with all the slackers and party-goers from their HS and the neighboring towns, and it’s important when you contemplate your cheerful, self-directed, “I don’t care what the teacher thinks, this is how I want my book report to look” kid who rejected your efforts at helping make a pretty cover in the fourth grade.</p>

<p>I think some of you are focused unduly on the rankings as being your proxy for some measure of intellectual engagement, creativity of thought, and active involvement by faculty. I think all three of those things are critically important when choosing a college for a kid who is highly excited by learning (but perhaps on his or her own terms).</p>

<p>But don’t use the top 20 or the top 50 or the top whatever’s as a reasonable measure of those things. Some schools won’t fit your kid; others will; some colleges which would be great fits will simply be unattainable based on the admissions odds, or location, or cost, or whatever.</p>

<p>So be happy that you don’t have to kick the tires on 300 colleges… be happy that some schools may simply be off the table because your kid is unlikely to be admitted, and then move on.</p>

<p>And for the record… there are kids majoring in Beer Pong at every school in America. There are kids with straight A’s from HS who end up on academic probation, and kids whose teachers would have named them 'most likely to flunk out, and be in a drunken haze when he’s escorted off the campus" who end up academic leaders and set the world on fire.</p>

<p>So you just don’t know. But your kids have been sending you pretty active signals for the last 18 years about what works and what doesn’t. Some kids need to be left pretty much alone in college to find their way; others would fall off the table without peer competition, a roommate who studies 24/7, and deans of this and that who are constantly checking in.</p>

<p>But none of those things is exclusive to the top 20. And there are some top 20’s which would be pretty bad places for a kid who needs deans checking in.</p>

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<p>Thanks for pointing that out before someone got on the tired, old “why-are-you-so-hung-up-on-prestige” soapbox. T20 is a stand-in term for “really good college”! I won’t be the least bit disappointed if my son ends up at #30, or whatever.</p>

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<p>Here is my opinion. I recommend a simple rule. The college rankings track SAT scores very closely. See where your kid’s SAT scores fall on the top 25% line of all the admitted/matriculated students, and I would not go any lower than 25%. I know many would disagree with this approach, but I like simplicity. My rationale is, I wouldn’t want to see my son going to a school where he is clearly outclassed in every category, and at the same time I don’t want him to be in an environment where he is not being challenged enough. If his SAT scores is in the top 25%, then at least he has proved that he can do better than most kids there on a test that most, if not, all the kids there have given their best shot on. This would give him a reason for hope and some justified confidence when his going in GPA is at the lower end of his peers. This is not exact science because the rankings itself is not an exact science, so give or take a few places.</p>

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<p>Our kids applied to college without knowing any US News or other “rankings”. After they applied, they learned about the school rankings.</p>

<p>DD goes to Santa Clara University (#2 masters university in the west, #19 engineering school where highest degree is masters). </p>

<p>DS went to Boston University…which is in the 50’s somewhere.</p>

<p>I guess my question is…can’t these kids find colleges that are well suited for them without considering the rankings?</p>

<p>Our kids felt these were good schools for THEM without reading the rankings…and both had a GPA that aligns with this thread.</p>

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<p>See where I posted a list of where I wanted my kids to start their search a few pages back, thumper … There were a few in the top 20 but I’d characterize it as generally top 40 or 50. And I’d be fine with my kids attending any college in that list, and of course many others not on that list.</p>

<p>(BTW, my niece just graduated from Santa Clara.)</p>

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<p>Our friend’s son, same year as D1, was always his own person. He got good grades if he liked his teacher and if he was interested. He always had more intellectual curiousity than D1. D1 just wanted to know what’s the surest way of getting from A to B. She’ll give her teachers exactly what they wanted and she figured it out early with all of them. Our friend’s son was more interested in doing it his own way. His grades suffered because of it, but his GPA was still above 3.7, and he had very good SAT scores. He was rejected from UPenn as a double legacy and many Ivies, but he was accepted at U. Chicago. His parents were upset about Penn initially, but they did realize Chicago was the perfect school for their son. He is very happy there. Our daughter, at a more pre-professional environment finds it to a good fit for her.</p>

<p>One thing I would also like to point out is kids from many top private high schools at those T20s are generally a lot more prepared than kids from public schools. Time management is an actual course at those schools, and those kids have been taught to write a 5-10 page paper in matter of days. It’s been found public school students do catch up eventually, but the first year is challenging. My daughter’s best friend, an Engineer major at her school, had 4.0 in high school found herself with close to C- the first semester. Her grades slowly improved each semester.</p>