Under 3.6 (GPA) and Applying Top 20 Parents Thread

Parents Forum
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<p>PaperchaserPop; your use of SAT’s as a proxy for whatever you’re trying to capture is flawed…and even the statisticians who design and curve the test at the College Board agree with me.</p>

<p>Using the test as a predictor of the kind of academic rigor your kid will face is bad science. College is much more than how the kid next to you scored.</p>

<p>There are schools with high average SAT scores where the majority of kids are there to get their ticket punched in some high paying career. There are schools with high average scores where the professors ^&*8 in private about how doltish and disconnected the kids are from anything at all intellectual. And there are schools with high SAT scores where the college’s reliance on part time and adjunct faculty means that your kid can hang out all he wants hoping for one-on-one time with the prof, only to get mowed down as they all head out towards their next part-time job which they need to pay the bills.</p>

<p>You need to find a better way to evaluate fit. There are schools that have been on an aggressive campaign to raise their average SAT scores (using merit money to “buy” kids away from other colleges which only give need-based aid; appealing to certain demographic groups known to have relatively higher scores, etc.) The presence of enough of these kids in the “admitted” pool means zero to your kid in the lab, the library, the lecture hall, or sitting at the seminar table.</p>

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<p>This is something that bothers me about the direction that my own t20 has taken. At the risk of sounding like the old fart (not oldfort, she sounds just fine!), while a lot of kids were smart and ambitious, it wasn’t all about dying to be an i-banker / management consultant from the get-go. You were there to learn and to enjoy, and at the back end you’d figure it all out what you wanted to do. I was in a specific quant program that sent kids pretty equally into academia, non-profit, and business (I happened to have gone the business route, but I could have easily gone the other routes too). That same program today is much more expanded -which is great - but the kids all leave there and head off to the same damn 5 companies and jobs and the world revolves around getting the big six-figure finance job. When I was there, we PRIDED ourselves that we didn’t have any courses from the business school, which at the time was the #1 business school in the country. And now they offer a certificate from the school for undergrads. There’s something very depressing about all of this. Not that I think it’s wrong to study business or be in the business world – heck, I’ve been in it and now consult in my particular field – but I find it depressing to think that the school is just a stepping stone to Wall Street, kwim? And so there’s a part of me that says - hey, kids, go a different path. You’ll have time enough to be a corporate grunt. Go some place smaller and more nurturing. Maybe I’m just musing out loud, I don’t know.</p>

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<p>Again, “top twenty” really just means “a really good college” or “a college with a great reputation” or something like that. Heck, my kid doesn’t know #10 from #40. He only knows a big-name college when he hears one, and he feels that if he’s going to work his butt off for a degree, he may as well have an impressive name on the diploma. Can’t say I disrespect that.</p>

<p>PaperChaserPop, I find your 25%-SAT-cutoff idea interesting, but it breaks down in some cases, such as my son’s. His section scores are 800CR/760M/780W. That means that the “drop off” for him would be somewhere around #12, and I know he would thrive at plenty of schools whose students’ SAT scores aren’t that high.</p>

<p>(Lest anyone think I’m bragging, please note the GPA range we’re talking about here.)</p>

<p>So I continue to struggle with the same question PizzaGirl posed: At what point does the school just not offer enough to challenge my kid? And, of course, there is no easy answer. But that doesn’t keep me from worrying about it WAY too much.</p>

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<p>Most kids know the big name colleges because of their sports teams…not because of their US News Rankings. How many KIDS are reading USNew? BUT their parents are. </p>

<p>Are there any kids posting on this thread? No…parents are asking the questions.</p>

<p>Re: challenge…this is MY opinion…kids challenge themselves. There are courses of study, professors and other opportunities at almost ALL colleges that will challenge students.</p>

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<p>Oldfort,</p>

<p>Your friend’s S sounds like my S1, and he is going to Chicago this fall also. I also feel that that’s a perfect school for him. It does seem like Chicago is far more “forgiving” of kids who did not bother to memorize the “top 10 college admission rule book”. </p>

<p>Though he intends to land in Wall Street upon graduation, he has always been more interested in “why” rather than “how”. During the first two years of HS when he did nothing but on line gaming in his spare time. But he did it the way a Ph.D. student would work on a dissertation. He read all the game manuals cover to cover, went to Web to read everything there is to read on this game - all the quirks and hidden ways to gain a few more points, kept elaborate logs to record his opponents’ moves, which were later used to predict their next moves, built multiple simulation models to forecast the outcome of his strategies, and pore over the actual moves by other players and outcomes to validate the efficacy of his models and to improve them etc. He became the youngest master strategist and was a hotly pursued player by several teams. Of course, the adcoms would love this stellar achievement, right? :)</p>

<p>It is this tendency that made me believe that there is something going on here that goes beyond just wasting his time playing on line games. So I let him play the game to his heart’s delight. In the end, he discovered Game Theory (not on line game theory, but John Nash like game theory in economics and social psychology) while he was searching for a better theoretical framework to use to perfect his online game skills. That lead to all sorts of other fun things like prisoners dilemma, cognitive dissonance, group think phenomenon, etc.</p>

<p>This is how he discovered his passion for behavioral economics. Once he discovered this, he quit online game cold turkey, and poured all his energy into economics and international finance. When he sold his online game avatar with all the built-in skills and qualifications on ebay for $1800, I knew for sure that he was done with it for good.</p>

<p>A very unconventional way to discover his passion, but it worked out all right in the end.
However, I must say, there were countless days I had to hold my tongue, and pulled my hair out in desperation and insecurity regarding whether I was making a grave mistake in letting him do what he was doing. One thing that gave me a peace of mind was that he is an extraordinarily bright and happy, well adjusted kid, and in the end he will find his way one way or the other, even if takes a few more years than otherwise. I was fairly confident that he may become a mediocre 100m sprinter, but he will be all right as a marathoner.</p>

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<p>oldfort, does your friend have my kid at her house? Ditto here – similar numbers and intellectual philosophy, now thriving at UChicago. Idad posted a couple of years ago that UChicago liked kids with imperfect resumes – I held on to that thought as S worked his way through creating his list and writing his essays, as a beacon that would help steer him to the place he belonged, wherever that turned out to be.</p>

<p>Chicago is not the school for everyone, but for certain kids, it is quite the playground.</p>

<p>I have found it amusing and ironic that S2, who is as opposite from S1 as brothers can get, also likes Chicago a lot, albeit for completely different reasons.</p>

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<p>Using PCPs SAT score system may be flawed, but in my opinion, you’ve got to start somewhere. There are hundreds of colleges in the US and you have to create a manageable list somehow. While I agree that SAT scores will not necessarily translate into academic rigor, I would submit that it is as good a shorthand as you have for the academic qualities of the student body. When I looked for colleges for my son, I used 50% admission rates as a qualifier, i.e. if they accepted 50% or less of their applicants then I would recommend that my son look at the school closer. More than 50% and it wasn’t considered. My son very much wanted a school where intellectual curiosity was valued.</p>

<p>Now if your student is statistically within the top 25% of SAT scores, then his chances of admission are greater, especially if you are looking at schools that are not in the top 10. If the student is in that top 25%, then the chances of merit money also increase (those of you on CC who consider merit money as inherently evil should disregard that consideration).</p>

<p>The only problem with using the uw 3.6 GPA is that it doesn’t tell you anything about how difficult it is to achieve a 4.0 at the school and it disregards the emphasis that most T20 schools put on the rigor of the applicant’s curriculum. There are some students referred to here you have excellent ECs and the makings of very interesting essays. Hyeonjlee’s son is a good example of someone who took a subject of interest to them and researched it on his own time. That is the kind of passion that AdComs are looking for and a slightly lower GPA may not kill their chances (especially at a school like UChicago). But that kind of passion can’t be ginned up between now and admissions deadlines.</p>

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<p>I don’t see what admissions rates have to do with much of anything in terms of determining whether a school is worthwhile. From what I am finding, I am finding some gems of small schools in the midwest that have (relatively) high admissions rates simply because they haven’t captured the eye of the big cohort in the northeast. That doesn’t mean that their SAT/ACT scores are low or that they don’t have smart kids or that intellectual curiosity isn’t valued. It just means it’s a popular place for kids to submit their apps. </p>

<p>I can see how admissions rates might have to do with how you might feel about your chances at a particular school, but that’s another topic altogether.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl - It was just a way to make the lists more manageable, like PCP using top 25%. My son was not within this thread’s demographic, but regarding the search for schools where the students value intellectual curiosity it seemed a valid selection method. The more difficult a school was to get into, the less likely it seemed that it would attract the attention of slackers. BTW, I think you intended to use “not” or “not yet” in the final sentence of the first paragraph.</p>

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<p>You are correct … whoops!
I actually was thinking of the classic, old NU-vs-U-Chicago thing - two schools attracting comparably high quality of applicants, but U-Chicago historically had a much higher acceptance rate than NU, but that was only because NU was more broadly appealing compared to U-Chicago’s more quirky, life of the mind feel. The acceptance rates used to differ by maybe 10, 15 points or so between the two schools, but it merely reflected U-Chicago’s self-selecting applicant pool vs NU’s broader one. In other words, one couldn’t conclude that NU was more a place where people valued intellectual curiosity than U-Chicago merely because NU had a lower acceptance rate at the time.</p>

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<p>That changes everything. Focusing on top-20 schools seems to me to be chasing prestige.</p>

<p>Opening up the list to include top-50 (or 100) opens the door to many more schools across the country that may be a better fit/match for your kid in the first place. Believe me, there are still schools with excellent, challenging academics in that list! Some of these may not be household names unless they are close to home, which may or may not impact future career opportunities.</p>

<p>A sub-3.6 kid with high scores may have many high-prob admissions options in this range, including some with opportunities for merit scholarships. This is where the list needs to begin.</p>

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<p>PaperChaserPop.</p>

<p>Harvard, or other web sites, might SAY that Harvard doesn’t consider it, but I have very serious doubts. Firstly, it’s asked on their application. So…regardless…it has to be considered. Also, there are SO many stats about how School “X” accepts a particular percentage of top % students. </p>

<p>I do believe it will be a sticking point for my D. She is National Merit SEmi finalist, 34 ACT, 2210 SAT, 780/750 SAT IIs…you get my drift. She can “reason” very well. She’s a very “deep” thinker. But she has trouble with focus, and is not the fact/figure memorizer. So she’s at a 3.67 UW right now. AND, it’s only that high because of her “arts” (VERY right brained…and taking drama, choir, band classes that are straight 4.0 of course). </p>

<p>HOWEVER she’s actually SO bright. But you wouldn’t know that if you saw all the Bs on her report card. She changed schools and it ended up being a very traumatic semester which ruined her GPA. So she’s BARELY BARELY top 10%. It is a VERY competitive high school in the top percentages. It competes with the #1 private school in our state (in same school district)…but lots of great kids choose, even those who can easily get into the private school both in terms of academics and financial considerations…select my Ds public school instead. So that rank is a BIT confusing. Of course, there is also the grading system from one school to another. For some students a 92 = A-, for others it is a B+. But of course the colleges see the school’s grading system when transcripts are sent in. </p>

<p>So…while D doesn’t have a completely SOLID application (her drama, band, choir classes involve 14-24 hours per week outside of class…leaving no time for clubs/leadership…these groups are first in the state…but of course it doesn’t mean much to Harvard to have a great choir student!) - she’s going to apply to a few Ivies anyway. Why not? No REAL hooks. Athlete, urm, etc. I’m hoping single Mom first generation might help. And she has some minor leadership, and minor athletics (but outside of school), and minor community service. So…her safety is our (great) state school, her “matches” are Northwestern and NYU, and her (far) “reaches” are Ivies. With the addition of financial aid to middle income families…how can anyone with an Ivy interest NOT at least throw an application their way? </p>

<p>Good luck to y’all!!!</p>

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<p>SAT scores for colleges are highly correlated with top-percentile HS GPA. Both of these measures have a strong correlation with acceptance rate. Presumably these are all correlated with the rankings as well. </p>

<p>The question is, of course, whether any of these quantifiable measures is correlated with what we are trying to achieve for our children. For many of us, one of the most important aspects we are looking for is “quality of education.” </p>

<p>In the absence of any other measures, I have to believe that in general, schools whose incoming students have reasonably high stats will probably have higher academic expectations of their students and will probably provide a more rigorous education than schools with significantly lower stats. (I certainly believe this for a school with 80% top decile students vs. one with 20%, but not so much if I were comparing 75% with 65%)</p>

<p>I’m wide open to suggestions on other ways to evaluate schools for “quality of education,” but I’m unfortunately quantitatively-oriented so, like Hat, I continue to use rankings, acceptance rates, SAT scores, and top-decile numbers as a indicators likely to be correlated with this elusive “quality of education” that I’m looking for (at least as an initial screener).</p>

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<p>Note that there are some significant outliers on the acceptance rate curves. </p>

<p>For example, Case Western has an acceptance rate of 75%, but SAT/GPA stats that would put it in the class with a number of schools in the 30% acceptance rate. (Is it the weather?)</p>

<p>RPI and Rose-Hulman are examples of wonderful geeky schools that might not meet your cut-off but can be a perfect match for the self-selecting high-stats students for whom these schools are good fits. Also, honors programs within a larger school or particular programs/majors may have a student body with stats and abilities on par with the top-20ish schools.</p>

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<p>Well. You asked for a way to come up with a list . I came up with a system that is simple enough to use. It is an approximation tool, so of course it is flawed. You don’t have to use 25%, it can be 40% for your case. I also recognized this system is not a linear thing, i.e. the percentage line slides to the right with higher SAT scores. I’ll admit that I came up with it rather quickly, but I think I can use it with some tuning. Here is the important thing - I use this list to generate a candidate list of realistic reach schools. It is not meant to a generator of a complete list of schools. Schools where our SAT scores fall out of the top 30% would be in the super-reach category. Since our kids don’t have the grades and no hooks, they must have great SAT scores to have some chances at a T20 or T30. Although I’m very hopeful DS1 will get to one of the T20s of his choice, I’m not delusional about his real chances. They are slim, but I still think is worth a try. Btw, I know our definitions of reaches and super reaches may be very different. Some may think my reaches are really super reaches, and that’s fine too.</p>

<p>You have to come up with another way to select the safeties and the matches. Yes. There are fine schools out there without the high SAT scores. I learned quite a bit just by reading the promotional packages that and our beloved CC threads. Once discovered and understood, these schools can be a source of matches or even reaches. Our family is seriously considering colleges that we never thought much of just a month ago. It is an ongoing learning and discovering process.</p>

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<p>I strongly agree with much of what Dad’o’2 is saying.
The sweet spot for a sub-3.6, circa 2100 SAT kid is somewhere around the 21-50 range. This opens up a much higher likelihood of admissions and merit aid than the top 20.</p>

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<p>Well, any significant drop off occurs well beyond the #25 or #30 mark. There is a lot of cross-application, and talent overlap, among kids who attend these schools and kids who attend the top 20. You’ll find many kids there who have the grades and the SATs to succeed at, but were maybe a little short on the ECs to get into, a top 20 school.</p>

<p>My kid was rejected by the #4 LAC and accepted to the #24. I cannot deny there are palpable differences in quality between the two schools. For example, #4 has one of the most beautiful libraries I’ve seen anywhere. #24 has a perfectly adequate library, but nothing to take your breath away. The average SATs are a little higher at #4. They accept more team captains and probably more kids with a combination of other strong leadership credentials. Average faculty salaries are about 10% higher at #4.</p>

<p>In other respects, the 2 schools are very similar. They are both respected, small liberal arts colleges located in beautiful settings with terrific opportunities for outdoor recreation, similar academic offerings, and a rather intense pulse. The climate is better at #24; it has D1 sports, #4 doesn’t; it’s in a more interesting urban location; it offers merit aid, but #4 doesn’t. My S also liked the social atmosphere at #24 much better. His pride took a little hit but he was not greatly disappointed by the rejection. And I am happy I did not see all the “Stress Counseling” posters on the BBs at #24 that I saw at #4. So I’m confident that the admissions process worked well for him and that he has chosen a school where he’ll be happier, and have a better chance to stand out.</p>

<p>By all means encourage your kid to apply to a top-20 reach school if it really appeals to him or her. But don’t load up on half a dozen or more of these, to the exclusion of the better matched schools, just because you think nothing less will challenge you.</p>

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<p>I like PCP’s approach. Is it perfect? No, but neither is anyone else’s. SATs not a true indicator? I agree, but the vast majority of applicants use it as a proxy for rigor and intelligence. So while it may be a crappy indicator, it’s the only one we have and at least it’s crappy across the board.</p>

<p>As far as the top 20 discussion goes, I think too many people, especially here on CC, treat admittance to the “Top 20” as “The Goal”, instead of the next step on the road to some sort of successful life. </p>

<p>At a couple of companies where I’ve worked I’ve been part of the interviewing process of new graduates. At one firm there was a hard and fast rule: No candidates with less than a 3.0 will be interviewed. It didn’t matter where they attended, Harvard or Whatsamatta U, less than a 3.0, we weren’t interested. Furthermore, if it came down to a 3.9 from State Flagship U vs a 3.1 from an Ivy, State Flagship won every time. We live and work in a “what have you done for me lately” society. A Harvard degree may open a few more doors for you coming out of school but after you’ve been out 5 years, the only question will be, “What did you accomplish at your last job?”; and 10 years out, where you got your degree will be a footnote. If you haven’t performed, the Good old Boy Network isn’t going to help. </p>

<p>I’d rather have my sons in the 60th%-tile at whatever number ranked school being challenged and succeeding than 30th%-tile at someplace where they’re barely keeping up.</p>

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<p>My younger s went to visit older s at his top 20 school when younger s was in the applications process. He came back saying “I don’t want to work that hard!” That said, ds, at his lower ranked school, is now taking 18 hrs with some pretty tough courses, and participating in lots of ECs. He would have absolutely fried trying to do this at a top 20. Sometimes it is better to be the top of the middle than the middle of the top. Older son, who is one of those too intense self-motivators, was intimidated by just how scary smart a lot of his peers were.</p>

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<p>This, in a nutshell, is what I’m trying to get to. I can always load up with “hey, let’s apply to HYPMS and just see what happens!” (theoretically, I’m not actually doing that, but you all know what I mean - it’s pretty easy to pick reaches, eh?) Or I can go down to safety-ville - that’s not that hard either to figure out. The notion of the sweet spot is exactly what I’m trying to get at here, and knowing where that sweet spot is … where there’s still quite a lot of intellectual bona fides and opportunities, chances are reasonable that if you apply to enough, you’ll get in, and kid won’t be overmatched or undermatched. </p>

<p>Is there general agreement with this being the sweet spot for kids at this general level? (in the absence of other considerations) Are the types of schools that I put in my earlier list within this sweet spot, or am I overreaching? Are there other points of view on this?</p>

<p>Someone else upthread also mentioned that some of these are only regionally known and therefore job opps are more regional. To be honest, that’s a factor that personally worries me. Am interested in any perspectives on this.</p>

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<p>I am constantly amazed by how many people have never heard of the top 20 LACs outside of their region. MY s went to a top 20 U with poor name recognition, but I dont think that will be an issue. Yes, the career fairs had a lot of local companies , but big name companies also showed up, and I think that in their major, companies or grad schools will know the schools. I understand your concern, pizzagirl, but I think its isnt that big an issue.</p>

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<p>Jym, where are you originally from? Being from the northeast originally, I knew a lot of those school names. But if I’d grown up where I am now - I can see not knowing them. This really is an area where U of I can set you up for quite a nice, affluent, upper middle class life and there just isn’t the big push for those schools. My H, who grew up in this area and is well educated, really doesn’t “know” much about any of the LAC’s other than a general “oh, I hear that’s a good school.” His best friend went to Amherst but I don’t think H fully recognized, “Oh, AMHERST, wow” kwim?</p>