Undergrad bio programs for potential science PhD

College Search & Selection
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DD has just finished jr year and we’re compiling a list of colleges. Her main interest is in bio, but she’s not sure about sub field. Neuroscience, evo bio, and genetics are current front runners. GPA is good (only B is a B+ Freshman year in an honors math class), with a rigorous course load in a well-regarded East Coast private school. Will have post-AP course work in math, French, and lab science. APs include Calc BC, Chem, and Physics C (not yet taken). SATs were 2300, with everything at or above 750. Strong secondary interest in language, literature, and music. Sr year coursework will be 3.5 science courses, calc-based stats, and 1.5 lit courses.

We have no desirable in-state option, but are looking at UW-Madison, UM-Ann Arbor, and 3 UCs: SD, LA, Berkeley – as well as a number of private schools. No real financial constraints. DD is not interested in SLACs or any schools in the South. Realistically, it looks like major research universities on either coast or in the Midwest.

I’d really appreciate feedback (pro and con, and/or comparative) on the schools I’ve listed or others that we should also be considering – e.g. University of Washington? I think I have a handle on the private schools, but I feel a bit out of the loop wrt public universities.

Thanks for any insight you can provide!

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One more question/variation on a theme – what’s it like to be a bio major who is NOT premed at any of these schools?

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What some premeds fail to understand is that they and their families are more impressed with the label “premed” than anyone else is. Science faculties are set up to educate future researchers, and if premeds want to come in and get their pre-reqs, fine, but shenanigans are not well tolerated.

I’m not trying to be negative when I say that this is really a useless thread. Any of the large research universities are comparable, with more opportunities than an undergraduate could even list, much less take advantage of.

The University of Washington is like a dream school for science majors.

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See, that’s useful – both points. Thanks!

I do wonder, having taught in a humanities department at a university with a notoriously cutthroat premed culture, whether some bio departments find a way to quickly extricate the future scientists from the premed frenzy (which might otherwise function as form of aversion therapy, at least in my kid’s case).

It would also be helpful to have current/prospective info re funding issues in various states and how flagship universities are likely to address or be impacted by them. I know some UCs have restricted entry to popular majors – especially in the sciences. When you’re in state, you may follow this stuff, but it’s hard to track/predict from a distance if you don’t know local politics.

And, at a more mundane level, whether it’s important to get into an honors program to get access to the courses you need might vary from state to state.

These are the kinds of differences I thought might emerge in this thread.

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I highly recommend UW Madison. I attended UW Madison and they offered many research opportunities. There is even a class there, Bio 152, that requires and outside research project. No one cares if you’re premed, pre-masters/PhD, or just want a degree to work straight out of undergrad. I cannot speak for the other schools, but they all have great reputations in the science world.

I majored in microbiology in undergrad, have worked as a technician in a lab for 3 years, and will be headed off to graduate school this fall to get a Ph.D. in human molecular genetics. It is important to remember that you can get your undergrad degree in pretty much any of the biological sciences and can still get a Ph.D. in a different biological science. You are not pigeon-holed into one area of study for the rest of your life. In fact, most PhD programs are “umbrella programs”. All of the biological sciences (i.e. genetics, micro, neurosci, pharmacology, etc) take the same classes the first year until you join a lab at the end of your first year and declare your program.

To prepare for graduate school in biological/biomedical sciences there are three crucial things:

1.) RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!!! If you want to qualify for top programs, research is absolutely crucial! At least 2 to 3 years is best. If you can get your name on a publication, that is even better. I cannot emphasize this enough. Sometimes even if your other statistics aren’t stellar you can still get into great school by having research experience.

2.) GPA . . . The higher, the better. Take this into consideration when selecting undergrad schools. You want a good school, but try to avoid those with serious grade deflation. It is easiest to get into a good program with a GPA > 3.5, but a GPA >3.0 will do in many cases if there is a valid reason.

3.) GRE . . . Again, the higher the better. Make sure she takes time to prepare.

Lastly, it’s great to go into undergrad with a plan to get a Ph.D. in the future, but make sure a back-up plan is in place. Many people work several years before applying to a doctoral program. During her senior year of college, in addition to applying to grad school, she should also apply to jobs.

Feel free to private message me.

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@exacademic Very good points. More sophisticated than you often see here. Despite ongoing funding debates, I am not aware of any significant issues like those at the Univ. of Wash.

As per the leading question; why do future scientists need extrication in the first place? Premeds are only irritants.

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Re extrication

In intro level courses, premeds may appear to be your cohort, especially in situations where they’re numerically dominant. And if you decide these are not my people, there’s the risk you may decide this is not my field (for the wrong reasons).

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I won’t say we’ve never lost a good researcher that way, but the premeds are fairly easy to identify and researchers need thick skins to begin with.

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Good to know – I’ve only ever been an outsider looking in, so maybe my concerns are misplaced.

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Really helpful, Mademoiselle – thanks!

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It does have the disadvantage in that biology and many other majors there are impacted, requiring competitive admission to declare or change into if not directly admitted as a frosh.

https://www.washington.edu/uaa/advising/academic-planning/majors-and-minors/list-of-undergraduate-majors/

For biology, minimum qualifications include a 2.50 GPA in prerequisite courses, but that does not guarantee admission to the major.

http://www.washington.edu/students/gencat/academic/biol.html

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You can try going to the department web page for the major at each college and checking the procedure on declaring or changing to the major. If the major requires higher admission standards than just being in good academic standing and passing the prerequisites, it should say so.

Examples for Berkeley:
http://mcb.berkeley.edu/undergrad/major/major/declaring
http://ib.berkeley.edu/undergrad/major/declaring.php

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@ucbalumnus That’s a pretty low bar, particularly if one is planning a professional career in science; graduate school, research, etc.

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If you are referring to the University of Washington biology major, note that 2.50 GPA is only the minimum needed to be eligible to apply. The actual threshold may be higher, depending on the number of students applying to the major relative to department capacity. Not sure how true that is for biology, but Washington computer science lists no specific eligibility GPA, but the actual college GPAs of admitted students tend to be in the 3.7 range.

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@exacademic I would be careful when assuming a “major research university” will have much benefit for undergrad students, especially state schools. I went to a private medium sized Midwestern university and then a big state research university for grad school and wasn’t impressed at all with the quality or nature of the undergrad program. The data suggests that more Phds come from smaller colleges anyway.

Gravitation toward some of the schools you mentioned is based on ratings of the grad schools usually.

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The data I’ve seen suggest that a higher percentage of kids from smaller colleges end up in PhD program; absolute numbers are relatively small. That said, I’m actually not invested in my kid ending up in a PhD program in science – it’s her vision of her future right now, so I want her to see what it looks like, to be in a position to make an informed decision, and to move forward if that’s what she chooses. To put this another way, I’m not counting on college to turn her into a future grad student. So the odds, so to speak, don’t matter.

She’s also coming from a small, intense, private school and is eager for the kid-in-a-candy-store, city-of-learning experience that major research universities can provide. In the end, it wouldn’t surprise me if she ends up splitting the difference – i.e. at some place like Johns Hopkins or Chicago (a research U. with a relatively small undergrad body) – but she’s definitely drawn to the schools with large and diverse bio programs and I’m just not finding that in smaller colleges. Another possibility is an honors programs within a large public university.

We’ll see how she feels after she’s seen some of these campuses. I suggested she look at Swarthmore and Harvey Mudd, but so far, she’s not interested.

Personally, I’m not at all sold on the “small colleges do a better job of undergraduate education” generalization. (I think it’s a kid-, school-, department-, and goal-specific question.). I’ve had a lot of experiences in a surprisingly diverse range of universities and from a variety of different vantage points and I’ve certainly seen smart, academically successful kids who were poorly educated at top SLACs as well as smart, academically successful kids who got plenty of faculty attention and excellent educations as undergrads at major research institutions.

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Thanks, ucbalumnus. I have been checking departmental websites and paying attention to situations where direct applications to specific programs/majors can be made at the time of initial admission. Of course, the tricky part is anticipating what her Plan B might look like and if access to it will be impacted/constrained in some way. That’s why Michigan, for example, looks so appealing – they’re good at everything she likes. UCSD, she’s not so sure --especially if she doesn’t end up in science.

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I graduated from UCSD Bio-engineering years ago (currently doing grad in Duke BME), with work experience in both pure Bio and Engineering. I think I can give some perspectives of studying bio.

First, I must say, unless your DD absolutely loves Bio, AVOID DOING PURE BIO AT ALL COST!!!. There are no jobs for people in pure bio, even for PhDs. Most likely people who didn’t get into med school couldn’t find a job, go on to PhD, couldn’t find a job, go on for postdoc, couldn’t get a job, continue postdoc, couldn’t get faculty position, another year of postdoc……

However, if your DD loves Bio, then just go for it. Nothing is better than working with true passion. My gf started her work in her lab like 8AM~8PM everyday including weekends, only paid 28k per year like other PhDs, but she still loves it and tell me about science she’s been doing every night. However, those people are extremely rare. When I worked in a bio lab 2 years ago, none of my colleagues really liked staying in lab.

So, only go for it if you DD is absolutely sure she loves it. Most people in Bio don’t have any “practical” or “useful” skills like math or programming to get out of bio. Many people did bio because they love science but can’t do math. When they realize bio is more like lab labor than actual science and think about quitting, it’s too late to get out because they never really learnt math for other sciences.

As for UCSD, Bio is no longer impacted so she would be free to transfer in. The impacted majors in UCSD currently are all engineering majors and computer science. San Diego is the best city I’ve ever lived in the US. The years in San Diego are like old beautiful dreams - sunshine, beach, flowers, never cold, never hot, friendliest people……

I strongly encourage students in undergrad to focus on something more fundamental (math, physics, mechanics, computing … , but NOT chemistry) and get a minor on what they want to do later (Bio for your DD) if they want to do a PhD in some specialized field later. Having a strong background in the fundamental science will open many gates in Biology that are not available for Bio students, such as systems biology, bioinformatics, biostatistics, computational neuroscience, biomechanics, biophysics …… Even when she realizes she doesn’t really like staying in bio later, with the strong science background, she can still get out easily, unlike my colleagues who were basically trapped there due to lack of other skills.

The schools I suggest to check out are: Berkeley, UCSD, UCLA, John Hopkins, Duke, UW—​Madison, UMich Ann Abor, WU in st louis, UW Seattle. These schools are not as hard to get in as the HYPSM+Caltech, but offering great educations as well as solid research opportunities. From my own experience UCSD is at least the top3 place (and actually #1 in terms of published papers) in neuroscience, bioengineering, nanoengineering, marine bio, and bioinformatics. As a graduated bioengineering student in UCSD, about 1/3 of my classmates got into top5 programs in bio||BME for grad school, and many other students got into UCSF and UCSD med school, some of them got job offers from companies like illumina and genentech.

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With her stats she should apply to a number of private schools besides the OOS flagship schools.
Why not Penn, Cornell, MIT,…?

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Hi exacademic ,

your DD sounds like my DS, 9 years ago.
May I suggest that she look at USC - University of Southern Calif- a private U where top students thrive and which offers more 1/2 and full tuition merit scholarships than any other top 25 private U.
DS was accepted at many U’s and colleges, such as Chicago, Brown, Dartmouth, Wash U, Carleton, Pomona, and was also awarded a full tuition scholarship from USC .
For numerous reasons, he decided to go to USC, and is now at Cal Tech completing his Phd, [ getting a PhD there was always his ultimate goal]
He recently said to me that he would challenge anyone to prove that they got a better education than he did at USC.

20+ years ago USC was known as the 'University of Spoiled Children", but now is known as the “University of Stolen Colleagues” as they are bringing in many top profs from universities across the US.
I think your DD would find that USC has all that she wants.
It is a university on the move!
I suggest she apply by USC’s Dec 1 deadline to be eligible for scholarship consideration.