Undergrad Econ VS. Undergrad Business Program

<p>"How about UVA compared to Duke?"</p>

<p>If you are talking about McIntire vs Duke Econ. I'd say make the decision based on FIT, since the programs themselves are fairly similar in term of recruiting opportunities. If you like Religious Studies, you may want to choose UVa and double major or Minor in Religious Studies. If you really like Environmental Science, go for Duke and take great classes environmental science...</p>

<p>P.S. Questions like "UVa/Duke or Chicago/MIT" should really be avoided. I can't stress enough over how much difference there is between the general atmosphere of UVa/Duke and that of Chicago/MIT. A student who's having the time of his life at UVa/Duke will hate the life in Chicago/MIT, and vice versa.</p>

<p>"most Ivy grads are hired by the "top" firms, but most end up leaving after two-three years. These students end up going to those top MBA programs or end up in even better jobs."</p>

<p>Does this signify that MBA is a necessity for long-term(permanent) employment? Thus is studying business as an undergrad, is repetitive (or perhaps unnecessary) as you're going to go to a grad school anyways? unless of course, if you're very talented to stay or even end up in a better firm. </p>

<p>*sorry if this is a hijack to the thread, but rather than starting a new post, I felt it was relevant to the original post.</p>

<p>Undergraduate business as a major may be useless at lower ranked universities, but try telling a Wharton student that. Undergraduate business schools (top 5) are very reputable and help you get your foot in the business world. </p>

<p>You will get a good internship and a great graduation job on Wall Street (if you so desire). Yes, for later on it may be a bit useless but remember, MBA is VERY concerned about work experience and going through u-grad and having a great starting job is very important when it comes time to apply to a Top MBA school.</p>

<p>Not to mention a lot of these grads go on to work permanently at other firms or are promoted. The actual MAJOR may be a bit redundant but there is no denying the opportunities and connections that it gives you. This is why many people, for example, will take Stern over ANY NYU major.</p>

<p>
[quote]
P.S. My son is currently applying to colleges--which is why I'm on this site to begin with. And since he wants to major in finance, I've pointed him to NYU, Bentley, Indiana, Purdue, Penn, and MIT over Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and the rest. When his time to go to graduate business school rolls around these are great choices, but not what I'm recommending for him (or anyone else on this site) at the undergrad level.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you're talking about "high" finance, I have to disagree with this and agree with Slipper1234 and Alexandre. With the exception of Wharton and MITSloan, degrees in anything from HYPS are probably going to be more valuable than specific business degrees from places like IU if you want to get into high finance. Let's face it. The leading Wall Street Ibanks, private equity firms, hedge funds, and the like hire almost exclusively at the top 15 schools, and with little regard for what you majored in. I've known people with History and English degrees get into bulge-bracket firms. But of course, they got their degrees from Harvard. If this is the path you want to take, then the high-ranked school is the way to go.</p>

<p>I agree that you might have to teach these guys the way to do business. But so what? The fact is, most of what you learn in college, you will never use anyway. This is true even of highly pre-professional degrees. For example, I have known many MIT engineers who are now working as engineers who say that they barely use even 5% of what they learned in school. All of those classes where they're doing huge calculations and derivations, or figuring out fiendishly difficult algorithms - they don't do any of that stuff on their job. </p>

<p>The truth is, most jobs really aren't that hard to learn how to do in terms of the tasks you will be doing. We're not talking about brain surgery here. What is really important is not the specific tasks, but rather the deeper issues like work ethic, intuition, creativity, and the ability to learn. These are things that really make education valuable. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. Think back to all of the classes you took in high school. High school makes students to do many things that they will never use later in their life. Think about it - how many people have jobs where they will deconstruct Mark Twain, write papers on the social impact of the War of 1812, conjugate French verbs, or learn how to bisect angles with ruler and compass? Practically nobody actually does these specific tasks later on in life. In fact, I would say that most people never use any of the specific things that they learned in school past, say, the 6th grade. So does that make junior high and high school worthless? Does that mean that the country is just wasting vast resources in running all of these school years in teaching things to kids that they will never use? I don't think so. The real goal of these tasks is that they are are teaching you how to think logically and creatively. A well educated mind can quickly learn whatever skills need to be picked up later on in life. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Much later, I worked at a fortune 500 company. This place was much more along the lines that Calcruzer described. We actually preferred top grads from the regional state colleges, and wouldn't recruit at any Ivy League colleges at all. The reasons included: matching specific training to specific jobs, matching expectations to jobs, willingness to actually work for salary and growth opportunities offered, high cost of turnover. I think we got great people from these state colleges, by the way.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with monydad here, especially in his last 3 points. The fact is, lots of companies, especially the big Fortune 500 companies, aren't really interested in hiring the absolute best and the brightest. They say they are, but they aren't really. What they are really interested in is hiring people who are going to fit well in the company, and that often times does not really mean the best and the brightest. </p>

<p>For example, I have noted that many large engineering firms will not recruit at MIT, and some that have in the past are cutting back on their MIT recruiting and focusing more on less prominent engineering schools. Instead, more and more companies who come to recruit at MIT tend to be smaller, but sexier high-tech companies, as well as consulting firms and banks. When one of the company representatives was asked why they were cutting back on MIT recruiting, the answer was simple - first, it's hard to get them to sign up. MIT engineers tended to ask for a higher salary than we were willing to pay. Secondly, and even more importantly, they frankly tended to get bored with the opportunities we gave them and would quit. For example, MIT engineers wanted to be working on new and exciting high-tech projects all the time, and the company just didn't have that many high-tech projects around. Moreoever, the MIT engineers wanted to get promoted to senior level and to the management ranks very quickly, but that would roil the existing seniority-based progression scale that the company had, so they couldn't do it. Bottom line, as good as the MIT engineers are, they just aren't a good fit for many companies. Simply put, MIT engineers want an exciting and high-powered career, and a lot of companies simply can't or won't give it to them.</p>

<p>This loks like a great program. The downside is it is invitation only.</p>

<p><a href="http://kelley.iu.edu/ibw/default.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://kelley.iu.edu/ibw/default.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here are some job placements. </p>

<p>Year: 2006 | Type: Full-Time
Name Firm Division Location Type
Jonathan Maroko Bank of America Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Silas Fok Bear Stearns Private Wealth Management Chicago, IL Full-Time
Logan Burt Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Austin Crum Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Ashish Jhunjhunwala Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Anchi Chern Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Rishav Puri Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Daniel Laszlo Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Gregory Kasavana Bear Stearns Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Adam Cohen British Petroleum Sales and Trading Chicago, IL Full-Time
Michael Gross Credit Suisse Corporate Finance Chicago, IL Full-Time
Christine Campanelli Deutsche Bank Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Michael Zabik Deutsche Bank Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Andy Boyle DRW Trading Sales and Trading Chicago, IL Full-Time
Kevin Lloyd Goldman Sachs Private Wealth Management Chicago, IL Full-Time
Phillip Funk Goldman Sachs Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Derrick Clark Goldman Sachs Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Adam Cohen JPMorgan Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Sumeet Jaisinghani JPMorgan Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Kaitlin Windle JPMorgan Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Gregory Buhay Lehman Brothers Sales and Trading New York, NY Full-Time
Gustavo Gonzalez Lehman Brothers Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Shiva Kalaiselvan Robert Baird Corporate Finance Milwaukee, WI Full-Time
Faris Jafar The Blackstone Group Mergers and Acquisitions Atlanta, GA Full-Time
Michael Klein ThinkEquity Corporate Finance San Francisco, CA Full-Time
Michael Lanter ThinkEquity Corporate Finance San Francisco, CA Full-Time
Ryan Brettell UBS Corporate Finance New York, NY Full-Time
Steve Dix William Blair Corporate Finance Chicago, IL Full-Time
End of List</p>

<p>General Information
The Investment Banking & Capital Markets Workshop is an industry focus program within the Kelley School of Business undergraduate program. The Workshop is designed to assist students with a strong interest in investment banking and the capital markets gain advanced industry knowledge and interact with professionals in the industry. Admission to the Workshop is by invitation only. Students may apply in the fall of their sophomore or junior year by written application and an interview.</p>

<p>Workshop Mission:</p>

<p>The mission of the Investment Banking & Capital Markets Workshop is to be the primary link between the Kelley School at Indiana University and the investment banking industry. Primary goals include providing members with a practical understanding of investment banking and developing strong candidates for investment banking careers.</p>

<p>Ongoing Goals:</p>

<ol>
<li>To prepare students for positions in Investment Banking, Investment Management, and other closely related industries</li>
<li>To differentiate the Kelley School from other undergraduate business programs</li>
<li>To increase our placement of students in the highly competitive financial analyst job market</li>
<li>To increase our student’s participation in the summer internship programs in the industry</li>
</ol>

<p>Founding Rationale:</p>

<p>In addition to the benefits to the students participating, the Kelley School will benefit in many ways from an increased presence in this industry. As the evaluation of Undergraduate programs becomes more objective and based on hard data average starting salaries will play a major role. Since these positions provide starting salary and bonus packages nearly twice as large as the current average starting salary of Finance majors they provide one of the better ways to raise our starting salary figures. A strong presence in this market provides a synergy to our similar efforts at the MBA level. Since in most cases the same HR people at these firms handle both the hiring of these analysts and their subsequent application to graduate programs these contacts should also have a potentially positive impact on the quality of our MBA application flow. The Workshop will provide close association and mentoring with high potential students; this should pay large future dividends in both our future alumni and development efforts.</p>

<p>Recruiters at NYU.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nyu.edu/careerdevelopment/students/recruitment/employers_that_recruit.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nyu.edu/careerdevelopment/students/recruitment/employers_that_recruit.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>top of page
Investment Banking
Alliance Capital
Alltech Investments
American Investment Services, Inc
Banc of America Securities
Bankers Trust
Berenson Minella & Company
Bridgewater Associates
Brown Brothers Harriman & Co.
Columbus Circle Investors
Credit Suisse First Boston Corporation
Fieldstone
First Empire State Corporation
First Reserve Corporation
Goldman Sachs & Co.
Houlihan Lokey Howard & Zukin
Lehman Brothers
Nomura Securities
Rodman & Renshaw
Roland Berger & Partners
Salomon Smith Barney
Shamus Capital Group</p>

<p>Financial Services</p>

<p>Active MediaServices
AIG Life Companies
Allstate
AMBAC Inc.
American Express
American International Group
Analysis Group/Economics
Americorp Securities
AXA Financial
Barclays Capital
Barington Capital Group, L.P.
Barra, Inc.
Belzberg Financial Markets (USA) Inc.
Berin Securities
BlackRock Financial
Bloomberg LP
Bowery Capital, LLC
BNP Paribas
BZW
Chatfield Dean
CIBC
Cigna
Consolidated Capital Planners
Cowan Financial Group
CGMS Inc.
Chase Bankcard Services
Chubb and Son, Inc.
Compupay
Dayton Hudson Corporation
Dean Witter Reynolds
Deloitte Consulting LLP
Department of the Treasury
Depository Trust Company
Deutsche Bank
Dow Jones Telerate
Dunhill Equities
Dillon, Read & Co. Inc.
Donaldson Lufkin Jenrette
Equitable
Ernst & Young LLP
The Equitable
Escott Investors
EZ Mailing Securities Inc.
FactSet
Fidelity Investments
Federal Reserve Bank
Financial Models
Financial Sciences Corporation
Finegan & Gressie
First Chicago Trust Company of New York
First Investors Corp
Fitch Investors Service
Fitch IBCA
Ford Financial
Fuji Capital Markets
G.X. Clarke & Company
General Reinsurance
Goldman Sachs and Company
Golden Lender Financial
GreenPoint Financial
Greenwich Capital Markets
Group One Trading L.P.
Hambro America Capital
Heartland Securities Corp.
Heritage Financial Group
Insurance Services Office
Interra Financial Inc.
Investors Associates Inc.
J.B. Hanauer & Co.
J.P. Morgan & Co., Inc.
Janssen/Meyers Associates, L.P.
Jannsen Pharmaceuticals
Kenneth Leventhal & Company
KPMG LLP
Larry M. Elkin & Co.
Lazard Freres & Co. LLC
Leaton Financial Group
Lehman Brothers
Liberty Mutual Group
Loeb & Troper CPA's
Loews Corporation
Logic Span Inc.
Mabon Securities
Marsh
Mass Mutual
MBI, Inc.
MBIA
Merrill Lynch
Merrin Financial Inc
Met Life
Meyers Pollock Robbins Inc.
Morgan Stanley
National Discount Brokerage
National Retirement Planning Associates
New England Employee Benefits Group
New York Life Insurance Co.
New York State Insurance
New York Stock Exchange
Nori, Hennion & Walsh
Northwestern Mutual Life
Patterson Travis
Peterson Consulting
Pershing
Philo Smith & Co.
PriceWaterHouseCooper
Primerica Financial Services
Prudential
R.S. Carmichael & Co.
R.S. Rosenbaum & Co.
Ruben H. Donnelley
Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., Inc.
Sanwa Financial Products Co.
Scher Financial Group
Securities Data Co.
SG Cowen
Singer Wenger Trading Co.
St. Paul Fire & Marine Insurance
Standard & Poors
Stanley-Laman Group
State Farm Insurance Company
Suppes Securities
Susquehanna International Group, LLP
TD Securities
Thomson Financial
TIAA-CREF
TM Capital Corp.
Townley & Updike
Trans Atlantic Reinsurance Corp.
UBS Painewebber
UBS Warburg
Watson Financial Group
Zurich North America</p>

<p>Stern or NYU CAS?</p>

<p>"If you're talking about "high" finance, I have to disagree with this and agree with Slipper1234 and Alexandre. With the exception of Wharton and MITSloan, degrees in anything from HYPS are probably going to be more valuable than specific business degrees..."</p>

<p>Sakky, I would add Ross to Wharton and Sloan when it comes to IBs and MCs and Stern when it comes to IBs.</p>

<p>I recently searched Ross's post-graduate survey. The stats show they are no better than Stern and are worse than other lower ranked schools. Their avg salary is also 50k, considerably lower than the 53-55k's.</p>

<p>You must take cost of living into consideration. 80% of Sloan, Stern and Wharton BBAs chose to work in the Northeast. Only 40% of Ross BBAs chose jobs in the Northeast. But if you adjust those starting salaries for cost of living, you would see that most of the top 5 or 6 BBA programs have similar starting salaries. </p>

<p>But in terms of IB recruiting, Ross and Stern are among the top 5 or 6 hunting grounds in the nation and in terms of MCs, Ross is one of the top 5 ot 6 MC hunting grounds.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bus.umich.edu/EmploymentProfile/TopHiringCompanies.htm?StudentType=BBAGrads%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bus.umich.edu/EmploymentProfile/TopHiringCompanies.htm?StudentType=BBAGrads&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.bus.umich.edu/EmploymentProfile/TopHiringCompanies.htm?StudentType=BBAInterns%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bus.umich.edu/EmploymentProfile/TopHiringCompanies.htm?StudentType=BBAInterns&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>As you can see, the numbers speak for themselves. Out of a class of 300, over 75 joined top Ivestment houses like Lazard, Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers, Deutsche Bank, Golamd Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, UBS, CS etc... That's pretty impressive. If you look at the employment profile, you will see that on top of the 15 students who joined the BCG, Accenture and Deloitte Consulting last year, at least 3 Ross students joined the Carlyle Group, Booz Allen and McKinsey. Altogether, I'd say a third of the class joined top IBs or top MCs and another thrid of the class joined top product-based companies because of their interest in the Marketing field.</p>

<p>OK, I would say $100k is STILL a lot of money for a 22-23 year old even if you live in New York City.</p>

<p>a couple of undergraduate business programs I would choose are</p>

<p>Wharton, Ross, Stern, McIntire, Sloan, Cornell AEM, Georgetown, Haas.</p>

<p>and maybe Marshall.</p>

<p>I would add Notre Dame and maybe UNC (Kenan Flagler), Carnegie Mellon (tepper) and UTA (McCombs).</p>

<p>First of all, my argument isn't that Ivy League schools or top-flight school's economic programs aren't good. My argument is that, at the undergraduate level only, given a choice between going to a school with a good business program and going to one without, I suggest taking the one with the good business program. Note that I also said that getting an econ majors from one of the best schools (Harvard, Dartmouth, Stanford, Princeton, etc) might be the exception to this.</p>

<p>Secondly, note that I said that these Ivy league schools are excellent schools for MBA degrees. The problem is most students do not go on to postgraduate professional study. Schools like Amherst and Brown may be entirely geared to this, but most schools aren't.</p>

<p>Lastly, I pointed out that my firm--and most firms on the west coast do not recruit Ivy league undergraduates without business degrees into their accounting and corporate finance departments. And, given a choice AT MY FIRM, between an Illinois accounting major or a Harvard undergraduate economics major, the Illinois major would be preferred for the finance department. </p>

<p>And when it comes to MBAs we might prefer someone from Harvard to someone from Illinois--since the Harvard grad would also have the business training as well. (In this case, we would look at all the details of each person)</p>

<p>I also think monydad put it best. We look for people who absolutely can already do today's job, but who have long-term potential. We aren't in the same situation as slipper1234's firm, where they have to impress clients with students from "name" schools on their staff. Nor are we like the "Big 4" accounting firms (KPMG, Deloitte, E&Y, PWC) who hire lots of students while knowing that they will release over half of them within the first 18 months.</p>

<p>Just wanted to thank dstark for that great list of recruiters at Indiana University and at NYU. It's very informative in allowing the students to do research on what companies fit their career objectives and in making a choice of which university to attend.</p>

<p>In rereading one of my posts, I realize I owe a note of apology to bananainpyjamas. </p>

<p>It's important that all of us (myself included) remember that the purpose of this site is to help out students in making some very important career choices. I was out of line in lecturing bananainpyjamas, and hope that he/she will accept my apology. I wish you all the best in your future career, and hope you have a wonderful college experience over the next few years.</p>

<p>Well, Accounting is different from Investment Analysis or MC, so it depends on what you're interested in.</p>

<p>I think Sakky is right in that Ibanks look for people who fit into the culture. I've heard recruiters say that they don't care what your background is, as long as you're really brilliant and will contribute.</p>

<p>Aurelius~</p>

<p>That's the BS they're required to spew at informational sessions. Ibanking is the most notorious industry in terms of being blue-blooded.</p>

<p>pure elitism.
;)</p>