Undergrad Econ VS. Undergrad Business Program

College Search & Selection
41

<p>To bring back this thread to the original topic--which was a question of whether to major in Economics or go to Business School, let me put it simply:</p>

<p>Unless you are majoring in Economics at Stanford or Univ of Chicago, the better choice is Business School. The only reason that Economics from even these schools are even considered passable is because they don't have undergraduate business schools. Any undergraduate business schools majors are considered better than economics otherwise--particularly from a decent school--and, of course, graduate business schools degrees are much better than undergraduate ones.</p>

<p>If you don't believe this, check out the hiring statistics from people majoring in business versus those majoring in Economics--there is no comparison--business wins out easily.</p>

<p>P.S. I work in the Finance Department of a major company (in fact Forbes Magazine named us "Company of the Year" for this year), and have also worked for a major consulting company in the Silicon Valley for years, as well as working for three other billion dollar Fortune 100 companies during my career, so I do know what I'm talking about.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
I'd say UVA and Duke are about equal, so why leave the devil you know for the cavalier you don't! hehe

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well the cavalier does happen to be in-state...and the devil didn't give me any financial aid...and I don't really like the devil very much...does this even make sense anymore? LOL.</p>

<p>Calcruzer - So, with the exception of Stanford and Chicago, companies always prefer biz majors? So I guess companies would rather have a UIUC biz major rather than econ majors from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia, Brown, or Northwestern, huh? I think you should rethink the part of your post where you say you know what you're talking about.</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
f you don't believe this, check out the hiring statistics from people majoring in business versus those majoring in Economics--there is no comparison--business wins out easily.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that's too strong. I wouldn't say that business wins out 'easily'. I think it really depends on the nature of the business school and the economics school, and a wide range of other factors.</p>

<p>For example, consider the starting salaries earned by MIT graduates of the Sloan School (course 15) and the MIT Econ department (course 14). They're not that far off. For example, in 2005, there was only a $2k difference, and that is probably easily explained by the fact that Econ majors are more likely to take more research-oriented jobs with the government or a nonprofit that pay less but also offer a far better quality of life than, say, going into consulting or banking. </p>

<p>Heck, you can see that in certain years, notably 2003, Econ majors actually got HIGHER starting salaries than Sloan students.</p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation05.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation05.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation04.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation03.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation03.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The point is, I don't see any truly clear edge that the MIT Sloan school has over the MIT economics program. </p>

<p>However, I do agree that there are other schools in which the edge is fairly clear. For example, at Berkeley, Haas grads do make significantly more than do econ graduates. </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2004Majors.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2004Majors.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2003Majors.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2003Majors.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2002Majors.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/CarDest/2002Majors.stm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>But that makes sense. After all, not everybody at Berkeley can study at Haas. To get into Haas, you have to spend 2 years completing the Haas prereqs, and then you have to apply to Haas. Only about half of those that apply will get in, and that's just talking about those that apply. Obviously plenty of other people do so poorly in the Haas prereqs such that they know they won't get in so they don't even apply. Many of those people who try to get into Haas but don't get in will end up majoring in Econ instead. Hence, this extra admissions process of Haas means that Haas students tend to be a more selective group of students. At MIT, however, there are no extra admissions procedures. Anybody who wants to major in Econ or at the Sloan School is free to do so. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Calcruzer - So, with the exception of Stanford and Chicago, companies always prefer biz majors?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think he meant to say ONLY Stanford and Chicago. I believe he was making a point about those schools in general that don't have undergrad business programs.</p>

44

<p>This is true and one has to look at the selectivy and extra "hurdles" to jump through when comparing Econ vs Ugrad.</p>

<p>At MIT, there is no discrepancy in such and therefore the two are relatively equal. However there are such discrepancies at:</p>

<p>Upenn (Wharton)
NYU (Stern)
Michigan (Ross)
Berkeley (Haas)
CMU (Tepper)</p>

<p>Which is just about the top 5 ugrad business schools. Why MIT does not fit this mold is reasonably clear as it is mostly a research and technologically based institution with econ/business both leaning to such.</p>

45

<p>Yes, bananasinpajamas, I would rather get someone from the business school at UIUC (University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) than an econ grad from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or the other schools you mentioned.</p>

<p>Why you might ask? Very simple. First, let's presume we're talking Accounting. This year UIUC ranks #1 in undergraduate accounting in US News & World Report's business school program rankings. So I'm getting someone who has taken classes in beginning, intermediate, and advanced accounting, tax law, Sarbanes-Oxley law, cost accounting, business law, and auditing as part of their basic requirements. In addition, as part of their business school curriculum they've taken a marketing course, a finance course, a general management course, organizational theory, human resource law, business ethics, an international business course, operations management, and, of course, micro- and macroeconomics courses. This person may also have taken investment classes, advanced tax courses, strategic management, or marketing campaign management. And they've certainly taken courses in team management. </p>

<p>What am I giving up? Well the Econ major has taken the lmicro and macroeconomic classes and maybe a course on capital markets, international economic systems, banking, and possibly Adam Smith's theories. Oh, and of course, their high school GPAs may have differed by 3.7 UIUC vs. 4.0 Harvard, and the SAT scores may be 1430 UIUC vs. 1550 Harvard. Big deal!?!</p>

<p>As a businessman, I would much rather have someone who is trained in exactly the kind of stuff I'm about to assign them--and who was schooled in what matters to me and why, than to get some super smart person who doesn't know the slightest thing about how to post debits and credits, open and close a ledger, or do a monthly close. Does that surprise you? I can, of course, teach the Harvard grad how to do all this, but then that may take me about 2 years--after which time they may or may not leave to go somewhere else with their newly obtained knowledge.</p>

<p>No, thanks--I prefer the business graduate. </p>

<p>P.S. My son is currently applying to colleges--which is why I'm on this site to begin with. And since he wants to major in finance, I've pointed him to NYU, Bentley, Indiana, Purdue, Penn, and MIT over Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and the rest. When his time to go to graduate business school rolls around these are great choices, but not what I'm recommending for him (or anyone else on this site) at the undergrad level.</p>

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<p>One last thing---before you become a "troll-type" and go putting people down for their statements, you might want to (a) have a little experience in the area under discussion, (b) have some statistics to support your argument versus the argument of the person you disagree with. Posting a supposedly rhetorical question that really isn't one doesn't fit the bill. </p>

<p>I'm sure that the professors at either the University of Virginia or Duke University will be happy to help you out in this regard.</p>

47

<p>As Accepted to College Already pointed out, there are excellent business schools (Michigan and Berkeley) that I have not mentioned in my previous posts as candidates for attending.</p>

<p>Yes, they definitely have great programs, and are places where your business degree will pay much more than the economic programs at the schools. </p>

<p>The only reason I'm not recommending them to my son is that both Michigan and UC Berkeley require you to attend their schools for a minimum of one year (Berkeley is 2 years) before entering their business programs. </p>

<p>It seems to me that if you want to go to business school, you want to go somewhere where you are sure that you will be admitted to the business school--and not where it's a "iffy" thing based upon your freshman and/or sophomore years. If this is not as important to you, then Michigan and UC Berkeley are fine choices.</p>

<p>P.S. I have Penn and UC Berkeley business graduates in my group. Personally, my MBA is from UCLA.</p>

48

<p>Calcrizer, your information is slightly dated. Michigan's Ross school is now admitting students straight out of high school, but on a limited basis. I think this year, Michigan is admitting fewer than 100 high school students. I know of 11 who were admitted thusfar. With the exception of one outlyer, 10 of those students had SATs that ranged from 2100-2400 and all 11 of them had unweighed GPAs in the 3.8-4.0 range. Many applicants with 3.8+ unweighed GPAs and 2100+ SATs were turned down by Ross. However, if your son is considering the likes of Stern and Wharton, then she should be competitive enough for Michigan.</p>

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<p>Calculzer you are flat wrong. The most prestigious banks and consulting firms (the most coveted business jobs) flat out recruit from the Ivies in almost ANY major much more than the business schools outside the top 3-4. I recruited for a top tier consulting firm and we recruited at places like Princeton, Duke, Dartmouth, Williams etc but wouldn't even look at a place like UIUC. The reason is job #1 is to impress clients + most of the work is learned on the job anyway. A Duke grad is 10 times more prestigious to our client than a UIUC grad, and even a lot more prestigious than a Keenan-Flagler grad from UNC.</p>

<p>My MBA is from Columbia.</p>

50

<p>I must agree with Slipper on this rare occasion. Harvard vs UIUC is a no brainer...unless we are talking about Engineering, in which case, UIUC blows Harvard out of the water. Of course, if one's intention is to join KPMG or D&T or PWC or E&Y as an accountant, going to UIUC makes sense too. However, by and large, an undergraduate degree from Harvard is significantly more valuable than an undergraduate degree from UIUC. </p>

<p>Slipper, I do not agree with your statement that a Duke degree is "even a lot more prestigious than a Keenan-Flagler grad from UNC". It may be slightly more prestigious, but UNC is one of the top 10 public universities in the nation, and Duke ain't Harvard.</p>

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<p>For "vocational" training like accounting UIUC is great, but the truth is most Ivy and top school grads do not end up working as accountants. </p>

<p>Alexandre, perhaps Duke isn't greatly more prestigious, but the difference between Duke and UNC business is greater than the difference between Harvard and Duke at least in my experience.</p>

52

<p>I would disagree with that slipper. Both Duke and UNC business are very reputable and their respective grads in econ and business tend to go after the same kind of jobs. They are also similar in cross applicants and are both considered top schools in the area.</p>

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<p>They go after the same jobs but the Duke grads get more. My brother is a business major at UNC and his best friend goes to Duke. While firms like Bain do show up at UNC, they hire many more from Duke. My brother said his UNC friends get great jobs, but its harder to crack the absolute elite jobs. That's not true for Duke. I think there is HYPS glorification on CC, when the truth is the 5-10 schools right behind them have similar placement especially in business. UNC is one of my favorite schools out there, and its not far behind Duke, but neither is Duke far behind Harvard.</p>

54

<p>I've worked in companies that took opposite positions on this.</p>

<p>I worked at an NY investment bank that hired pretty much exclusively from Ivy league schools and the like for entry-level undergrad jobs. That's because they were going to train them in their specific duties anyway, and they just wanted the smartest people. And people whose resumes would impress potential clients. The only undergrad business program I recall being represented was Wharton. </p>

<p>For their "permanent" hiring, however, they promoted only a small number of those people. They didn't care if these people, now trained, left immediately after two years- in fact, they kicked them out!!! The preponderance of their permanent hiring were MBAs from very top schools, who obviously were specifically qualified in business subjects.</p>

<p>Much later, I worked at a fortune 500 company. This place was much more along the lines that Calcruzer described. We actually preferred top grads from the regional state colleges, and wouldn't recruit at any Ivy League colleges at all. The reasons included: matching specific training to specific jobs, matching expectations to jobs, willingness to actually work for salary and growth opportunities offered, high cost of turnover. I think we got great people from these state colleges, by the way.</p>

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<p>Calcruzer - Well I'd say my experience with the career center at my school is enough to show me that there is a ton of Duke alumni in the business world, with many Duke undergrads being recruited into i-banking and consulting. Apparently there are many firms that don't share your particular biases. You're right that for particular business majors, like accounting and marketing, a business degree does give you a significant advantage. But extending that to finance? Give me a break. Show me one major i-bank that turns their nose up at Harvard.</p>

<p>Oh and please spell my screenname correctly. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Slipper, I'd say the difference between UNC and Duke (at the undergraduate level) is about equal to the difference between Duke and Harvard...in other words, not that great a difference.</p>

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<p>I agree, especially since I know there are many NC residents who are certainly qualified to go to Duke, but choose UNC because of cost (or basketball).</p>

58

<p>I'd agree with that. Monydad is right, most Ivy grads are hired by the "top" firms, but most end up leaving after two-three years. These students end up going to those top MBA programs or end up in even better jobs. As for the non top-4 "business" school grads they are more desirable at the "industry" companies which hire for specific skills. </p>

<p>It all depends on what you want to do.</p>

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<p>how about UVA compared to Duke?</p>

60

<p>my experience with business and economics:</p>

<p>lots of my family friends are investment bankers on the wall street, so my mom decided i must be an investment banker too. she pushed me really hard into applying for schools like Sloan, Wharton, Ross, McIntire.... I ended up at UVa, for the excellent program and the in-state tuition.</p>

<p>So i took this Introduction to Business class AND Intro to Microeconomics class in the first semester. I got As for both, but i liked economics much more. for me business is really dry and is filled with BS. Economics actually has concrete principles and theories. Trust me, learning the allocation of resources is much more interesting than learning asset turnover rate or sustainable growth rate. So, I decided to double major in Economics as well, since i really enjoy it. I'm still getting the McIntire degree just for the recruiting opportunities and network. </p>

<p>I don't think it's possible to know what you really want to major (econ or business) when you are a high school student. I'd say:</p>

<p>if you are 100% sure you just want to work for accounting firms/marketing firms, choose a top business school in accounting/marketing.</p>

<p>if you are unsure about what specific fields you want but sure about the fact that you are going into business world in general, go for schools with good economics or good finance departments. Chicago or Wharton? Brown or McIntire? I say it doesnt matter, those schools are tremendously different, choose your school based on FIT in that case.</p>

<p>Bottomline: just don't give up a school like Dartmouth for University of Maryland's business school.</p>