Undergrad Economics vs Undergrad Buisisness

Parents Forum
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<p>Taxguy:I think that everyone here has distinguished between accounting and just business. The former certainly is not a slacker major and is more of a professional degree: there is a specific job that you have excellent training for - it's like engineering (truly an undergrad professional degree). </p>

<p>I think you're also making quite an error in comparing graduate programmes with MD/JD ones. The latter are entirely GPA-based (along with MCAT or LSAT), whereas grad schools do look at the strength of your major, curriculum, and your GPA. </p>

<p>I do agree with the bulk of what you say - that an accounting major or a Wharton grad will have excellent job opportunities upon graduation. However, I think it's incorrect to extrapolate from that to the Podnuck U. plain business major.</p>

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<p>Ok, well, let's say that you had the choice between hiring 3 equally talented people to do the same job, but you had to choose one. Each one had a different undergrad degree, which one would you choose: </p>

<ol>
<li>Applied International Finance</li>
<li>International Business Administration</li>
<li>International Economics</li>
</ol>

<p>What I'm really trying to ask here, is which one is more valuable in the buissness world because I have a choice between them.</p>

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<p>I'd choose the one with the best experience and record of achievement.</p>

<p>Among business majors I think Finance, Operations, Actuarial Science and Marketing Research are all good tough majors with high levels of job opportunities.</p>

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<p>On different subjects, Barrons and AriesAthena nail it.</p>

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<p>Having spent quite a bit time trying to answer that question myself, the only conclusion I reached is that ... there is no clear-cut answer. In fact, the people who are offering clear-cut answers are most often very poorly informed. I tend to take great exception to the commentary that the business degree is more or less a slackers' degree, except for the degree conferred by great schools such as Hass or Wharton. On the other hand, I take an equal negative view on the opinion that a degree in economics from a liberal arts college is less marketable. </p>

<p>I cannot help but that most people tend to make the commentaries based on little research or even worse, outdated information about the programs. The reality is that the lines that divide the programs are extremely blurry, especially at the undergraduate level.</p>

<p>There is little discussion that Penn's Wharton is considered the best school for UG Business. Yet, do people REALLY know what makes Wharton the best school in the "genre"? I am always amazed that posters, especially on CC, believe that the school is tops because it offers a highly concentrated indoctrination in business, finance, accounting, marketing, or whatever falls in that category. Checking the curriculum at the website of Wharton's UG should dispel that fallacy quite easily. I let you be the judge why Wharton is different from others. </p>

<p>On the other end of the spectrum, an astute researcher should be able to discover similar programs at schools that are not known for offering business courses. </p>

<p>In the end, before arguing about the "marketability" of a particular degree, one should evaluate the individual courses and ascertain the number of marketable skills that are taught. Could it be that the marketable skills that interest the corporate recruiters are not necessarily the ability to perform flawless analyses of ratios and other balance sheets, or recite the exact numbers of P that Marketing 101 indicated? Could it be that the skills that recruiters want to see are critical thinking and the ability to express it correctly? </p>

<p>In my opinion, the critical skills can be acquired through various routes, and trying to establish the superiority of one degree of over another is an exercise in futility.</p>

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<p>The best thing Wharton has going for it as that many of the brightest and most motivated students choose to attend it. The fact that Wharton adds some patina and a good working set of tools to the equation does not hurt either. Reputation goes a long way in the business world--deserved or not.</p>

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<p>JakeR: before I hire anyone, I need to know the job requirements. As someone who does hire business types, For example if I'm looking for a Controller, then I wouldn't interview any of them unless they had a CPA. </p>

<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>like everything in this education world, reputation works wonders. IMO, what makes Wharton a so-called top UG biz program is because it is associated with a top Grad school. Ditto Haas at Berkeley. It just so happens that of the top ~20 Grad B-schools, few actually offer an UG degree in biz. For those that do offer an UG degree, it is automatically presumed to be "better" than others due, primarily, to reputation of the Grad program and the selectivity of the school, i.e., getting into Wharton-Penn is more difficult than getting accepted into Penn State. But, since most of the top 20 schools with biz programs do NOT offer an UG degree, the major of choice at that school is econ, which is highly regarded most places -- as you posted out. (btw: accounting courses are hard to come by at LACs, at least this researcher couldn't find them.)</p>

<p>That being said, when I was in a Big 8 accounting firm, audit preferred accountants from the state schools, and not the majors like Wharton or Cal. In answer to your query, critical thinking was important, but so was a solid foundation in accounting and flawless analysis. In the investment banking world, they want quant jocks and critical thinking skills and analysis (they love physics majors, btw).</p>

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<p>Humm ... I agree that Wharton does have the reputation and attracts many bright and motivated students. Wharton does not, however, corner the market on reputation and many schools that compete with Wharton for undergraduates have more stringent admission policies and higher selectivity. </p>

<p>If the affiliation to a top graduate program would the key, wouldn't Harvard or Stanford be clearly superior to Berkeley? </p>

<p>It is not hard to find out why Wharton -in its own words- considers itself different and ... better. Its reputation is not derived from superiority in all departments: its courses in accounting, for instance, cannot rival the courses at UICI, not to mention UT-Austin that has no rival in the country in all three of UG, graduate, or postgraduate accounting courses. </p>

<p>Go check Wharton's website ... it is all spelled out in block letters ;)</p>

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<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>perhaps my point wasn't clear.....Wharton's undergrad rep is based, in part, on the rep of its grad school; Wharton is known for its Finance program, generally considered #1, altho some in the Windy City would disagree. While H&S do have top-ranked B-schools, neither offers an undergrad degree. One can take biz classes as an undergrad at those two schools, but classes are typically space available, with permission only.</p>

<p>According to USNWR, top schools with undergrad biz majors (copied from another cc thead):</p>

<p>MIT (#2)
Mich (#3 tied with Haas)
NYU (#5)</p>

<p>Tie for 6-8:
Caregie Mellon
UNC Chapel Hill
UT Austin</p>

<p>Tie for #9
USC-Marshall
UVa</p>

<p>UICI?</p>

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<p>Bluebayou, by using the same ranking of USNews and looking for the specialty section, you'll find the rank for University of Illinois in accounting -as well as UT-Austin. </p>

<p>Rather than sending you again to the website, allow me to cut and paste the sections that I considered worthy of interest. I think that Wharton leaves little doubt as to why its program is ranked that highly. </p>

<p>What Makes Wharton one of the Top Undergraduate Business Schools?
Our combination of **business and the liberal arts and sciences **gives students a broad understanding of the larger social and cultural context within which business must function. That's what makes Wharton one of the top undergraduate business schools ? and one of the best undergraduate educations.</p>

<p>Wharton's Breadth and Depth are Unique Among Undergraduate Business Schools </p>

<p>Wharton combines a *liberal arts education and a foundation in core business concepts *, giving students options and choices not offered at other undergraduate business schools. This innovative learning experience develops leadership and teamwork skills as well as insights into the management of organizations and a broader framework for understanding how the world works. The Wharton four-year undergraduate program consists of 37 integrated liberal arts and sciences with business education courses, leading to the Bachelor of Science in Economics degree.</p>

<p>General Education Requirement
A strong interdisciplinary base for critical thinking and problem solving through liberal arts and sciences.
3 Foundation: microeconomics, macroeconomics, and calculus
7 Liberal Arts & Sciences: humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences
1 Writing Course
5 Electives
Foreign Language Requirement: Penn offers instruction in more than 100 languages.</p>

<p>Business Education Requirement
Introductory core and advanced courses in business:
1 Management 100: Leadership, and Communications in Groups
9 Business Fundamentals: accounting, statistics, finance, management, marketing, operations and information management
4 Business Depth: four upper-level courses in one of 18 "concentrations"
3 Business Breadth: three upper-level courses in different disciplines outside their concentration</p>

<p>Environment of Business Requirement
Expands understanding of the societal, organizational and global context of business:
2 Societal Context: courses on business law, ethics and responsibility, or global practice
1 Organizational Context: course on industrial relations, human resource management, or risk management
3 Global Context: courses that focus on international content</p>

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<p>I don't find Penn's requirements that different from most good ug business programs.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bus.wisc.edu/undergrad/advising/fs/pdfs/prb_check.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bus.wisc.edu/undergrad/advising/fs/pdfs/prb_check.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Related story--Ivy and top privates losing hold on top mgt jobs. </p>

<p><a href="http://slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2112215&%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://slate.com/Default.aspx?id=2112215&&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>the description of Haas also references strong integration with liberal arts, which I would assume they all do (perhaps with the exception of Sloan, where two years of Calc and Physics interfere with advanced Mktg). Frankly, I don't find Wharton's marketing that unique. Perhaps they should stick with finance. :)</p>

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<p>Xiggi, I think you may be missing a key point here. Regardless of what YOU think about business degrees, the hiring managers in the working world have their biases. Unfortunately, as a job applicant, their biases are YOUR problem. What I think about UG bus is irrelevant. I will not be interviewing you for a job. </p>

<p>My point, and the point made by others, is that hiring managers hire skills and ability. IF your UG bus degree develops skills and allows one to demonstrate ability, fine. An accounting background might do, for instance. But, part of the reason it helps is because there are well recognized standards for accounting training, so a hiring manager can assess both skill and ability, for example.</p>

<p>Anyway, rail against the biases if you want, but don't ignore them.</p>

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<p>Pretty interesting twists in this thread. </p>

<p>NMD, who is railing against a bias here? Have you REALLY read what I wrote? </p>

<p>I am not the one who came out to state that a business degree is a slackers' degree, unless one specializes in accounting. </p>

<p>My point was that the differences between degrees in economics and degrees in business have become blurry. I cite the example of the school that is reputed to be the best: Wharton! Check the degree they are offering ... it's a BS in Economics. It's is not a concentrated degree in finance. </p>

<p>All I said was there are more than one road one could travel to start a solid career. If the best BUSINESS school accomplishes its objective of creating the best curriculum by merging a liberal arts education with science and mathematics, why would other schools that specialize in economics not be able to do the same. Different foundation ... same outcome!</p>

<p>As far as recruiters go, they represent a multitude of firms and their target are not one size fit all. We all know that the Ivies provide known and fertile recruiting grounds, but so are State schools such as UT-Texas, Michigan, Illinois, Virginia, ASU ... and the list goes on to include dozens of LACs. </p>

<p>My opinion about matching a particular degree to a particular recruiter does indeed matter little: there is ample evidence that recruiters visit many different schools to fill many different positions. </p>

<p>Allow me to restate my earlier point: "In my opinion, the critical skills can be acquired through various routes, and trying to establish the superiority of one degree of over another is an exercise in futility." What is yours?</p>

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<p>Business degree is hardly slacking. It's about getting a job. Studying Shakespaeare and the Civil War won't get you a job, that's for sure.</p>

36

<p>Let me list the courses I have taken.. we'll see how they fit into that courseload the Xiggi posted..</p>

<p>CLASSES TAKEN BY EVERYSTUDENT</p>

<p>Human Communication
English Composition
Writing About Literature
Information Literacy
Critical Thinking & Problem Solving(or higher level math, i took business calc)</p>

<p>Then you have distribution requirements that you have to take (i.e. 2 sciences, 2 arts, etc) as well as the courses required for your major. Here's a list of the rest of my courses.</p>

<p>Art Appreciation
Design I
Photography I
Computer Graphics I
Photography II
Photography/Digital Imaging
History of American Civ.
American Government
Personal Productivity Computing
Business Calculus
Financial Accounting
Macroeconnomics
Microeconomics
Principles of Management
Business Statistics
Managerial Accounting
Principles of Marketing
Managerial Finance
Operations Management
Business Law I
International Business
Human Resource Development
Human Systems in Organizations
Business Policy
Programming/Software Engineering I
Management Information Systems
Workgroup Productivity
Intro to Networks
Hardware/Software Architectures
End-User Support Management
Web based Systems Development
Business Systems Analysis & Design
Database Management Systems
Concepts of Physical Activity
Beginning Bowling
Physics E/M
Biology I</p>

<p>That's a business information systems major, with minors in visual communications and photography. I'd say that those classes fit in with what Xiggi posted about distributions and whatnot.</p>

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<p>Just a quick thought... when reading this, it reminded me of some of the engineering threads. </p>

<p>There are some ABET accredited majors, which are always looked upon with favour. There are some schools that have an engineering major but not an engineering school (w/ separate requirements), which is often frowned upon. Some majors at the undergrad level, like nanotech or biomedical, are frowned upon - simply, the person making a hiring decision doesn't know what courses have been required. It could be a killer programme or it could be a slacker one - and they don't want to take the chance of it being the latter. That is why I always advise to be boring - go for the ABET accredited major at an engineering school with a meat-and-potatoes engin. major (like chemE, compE, mechE - not something fashionable). </p>

<p>I think the same goes for business majors. If you're in a position where you have to start justifying the fact that it's a "real" version of business or engineering, you're in trouble. Better to take the path that employers are familiar with.</p>

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<p>"My point was that the differences between degrees in economics and degrees in business have become blurry....</p>

<p>All I said was there are more than one road one could travel to start a solid career. If the best BUSINESS school accomplishes its objective of creating the best curriculum by merging a liberal arts education with science and mathematics, why would other schools that specialize in economics not be able to do the same. Different foundation ... same outcome!"</p>

<p>Xiggi, you are entirely correct in what you state above from an academic point of view. But your statements are off the mark in the working world. You said "I cannot help but that most people tend to make the commentaries based on little research or even worse, outdated information about the programs. " Maybe you cannot help it, but you sure should be concerned about it. It is sad but true that the knowledge set of (most) hiring managers froze when they graduated from college. (BTW, the same is true in Medicine. Yes, sad but true). So the current stellar quality of a UG bus program does not matter if the hiring manager, or worse, the staffer in HR, screens out your resume.</p>

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<p>Last year a very successful international banker came into my economics class and recommended that people go into Economics instead of business... I forgot his rationale to it, but I remember it was good :)</p>

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<p>NMD, I have tremendous respect for your opinions, but it seems that you are battling me on a point I did not make. From your posts in this thread, I am not sure about your conclusion on the UG Business and the UG economics. While you seem to support the notion that a "typical" recruiter prefers one over the other, I cannot decipher which one that would be. </p>

<p>To repeat what I have said earlier, I believe that the typical recruiter will look a certain set of qualities that fit the criteria of the firm he or she represents. My point was that this certain set of qualities can be accumulated through different channels because the demarcation lines have become blurried, in this case through either a degree in economics or a degree in business. If a firm looks for a candidate with a declared major in accounting, it is obvious that they will prefer a UT-Austin over a Smith graduate. Most schools have tried to develop a niche market: UT-Austin has focused on Accounting and Information Systems, ASU is tops in Supply Management, other schools focus on Marketing, and the list goes on. I believe that the same is true for graduate business schools where the leading schools exhibit clear tendencies between general management and a slew of specialized programs ranging from finance to industrial management. </p>

<p>On the other hand, at the UG level, successful programs such a Wharton offer a degree that balances liberal arts and sciences. I know for a fact that an almost identical curriculum can be pursued at a LAC. Looking at the recruiters' visits at several schools, I believe that the recruiters tend to agree. </p>

<p>What am I missing?</p>