Unfair URM acceptance

Graduate School Law School
41

<p>
[QUOTE]
The black immigrants you are talking about usually have high enough scores to get into top schools on their own merit.

[/QUOTE]
They get a bump. Any URM who gets into Harvard via AA could likely get into another highly ranked school without AA, just not as a highly ranked as the H-Bomb. Not sure what your point is.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most of the arguments people make usually sound as if every minority got in through affirmative action.

[/quote]
No. It certainly devalues the achievement of those URMs who could have gotten in without getting the skin color bump or unbump (if you're Asian).</p>

<p>
[quote]
No one discusses the percentage of minorities that actually get accepted on their own meirt.

[/quote]
I feel sorry for them.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The large majority of the majority of black middle class students had scores that could get them into those school while the rest benefited from affirmative action.

[/quote]
Source? Where is it said that the <em>majority</em> could have gotten into their current school without AA? Not saying it's wrong, but I just want some confirmation.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Why I argue this is because, as I mentioned I attend a top school- not the best of the best but one of the best- and I have met people from other top schools.

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I don't care about anecdotal information in the slightest.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I seriously don't understand why anyone has qualms with affirmative action.

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I don't really have any qualms with private institutions doing it. Just public. So I guess replace Harvard with Cal or something.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A small percentage of the school gets into the school because of AA- like say 5-6% max (I have to think like all the ignorant people here that like 1-2% get into top school on merit) of African American actually get in on merit. Another 4-5% for Hispanics. Leave the legacy students out. A large number of the top athletes that are recruited are African-American so within the 5-6% of accepted students a large number of athletes. 10% of a school gets their student body through a system that is seen as "unfair" by "qualified students." So a typical freshman class has 50-60 students who got in through AA. The number of dumb-assed people that I see in my classes far outweigh this number and my class of a 100 usually has like 5 minorities max.

[/quote]
Anecdotes. Irrelevant.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Seriously, what is the problem? That is why I told one of the posters so what?

[/quote]
Are you seriously arguing that because the numbers are small it's not bad? That argument has never ever been persuasive. If you are gonna argue from a utilitarian perspective you better bring a better argument than that.</p>

42

<p>Mr Payne, I think you are a very sick person. I also believe you have a problem with critical reading and have to read sentences point by point before you understand.</p>

<p>I said black immigrant get scores that should get them into Harvard and that is why they got in. What I am trying to say- I have to spell it out for you- is that not every black student gets into top school through AA. I would assume you are Asian, Mr Payne (whites from my experience are not really sympathetic towards the plight of Asians especially Asian males) and I do concede that Asian have a higher standard. But just curious do you attend a top school- I really want to know, because you are talking about Harvard as if you actually go to Harvard. If you do fine and then you probably know more than I do about the quality of minorities there. The source that the majority of black student immigrant get scores that get them into top school is because my school's black population is made up of like 60% immigrant population and I actually know this people. your opinions are made from what you think. </p>

<p>You keep saying I am making anecdotes which are irrelevant. But I could also say that affirmative action was a myth- which common sense indicates the contrary- since I have actually not seen any concrete evidence and probably 90% of people arguing here have never been on the admission board to see how affirmative action works. So to be sincere Mr Payne everything you have said from the beginning because it lacks any concrete evidence is irrelevant.</p>

43

<p>What bothers me is that they justify it by saying they want a "diverse" class of people. What a crock - diversity isn't skin deep! I know plenty of "minorities" (where I live, whites are technically a minority but whatever) that have the exact same culture as me. Them being admitted to my law class would not make it more diverse in any way but racial.</p>

<p>To me, diversity is not racial but partially culture, very much experiences, and outlook.</p>

44

<p>Espenshade et al, 2005 will answer a lot of questions.</p>

45

<p>
[quote]
The black immigrants you are talking about usually have high enough scores to get into top schools on their own merit. Most of the arguments people make usually sound as if every minority got in through affirmative action.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Some do, some, while still having very good scores, do get a "bump" - plus, the % of admitted applicants at each score level is significantly higher for black candidates.</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
Mr Payne, I think you are a very sick person. I also believe you have a problem with critical reading and have to read sentences point by point before you understand.

[/quote]
Cool.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I said black immigrant get scores that should get them into Harvard and that is why they got in.

[/quote]
I agree with this and never said otherwise.</p>

<p>
[quote]
What I am trying to say- I have to spell it out for you- is that not every black student gets into top school through AA.

[/quote]
I agree with this and never said otherwise. Looks like maybe you should work on your critical reading skills?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I would assume you are Asian, Mr Payne (whites from my experience are not really sympathetic towards the plight of Asians especially Asian males) and I do concede that Asian have a higher standard.

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I don't care about race. I care about standards and what is right.</p>

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But just curious do you attend a top school- I really want to know, because you are talking about Harvard as if you actually go to Harvard.

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No, I was too busy paying for school to consider privates.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you do fine and then you probably know more than I do about the quality of minorities there.

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You don't get it. I don't trust things I see myself because the sample size is far too low to get decent data quality.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The source that the majority of black student immigrant get scores that get them into top school is because my school's black population is made up of like 60% immigrant population and I actually know this people.

[/quote]
Umm. Your <em>anecdotes</em> are your source. Wow.</p>

<p>
[quote]
your opinions are made from what you think.

[/quote]
My opinions are formed from data. I think a substantial portion of the URMs at select institutions benefited from their race (ie: if they weren't URM, they wouldn't have gotten in). If it was 1% I would still be arguing that it is wrong.</p>

<p>Do I have concrete numbers for this, nope. This is the sort of information that college admissions do not want to give away. However, it's generally accepted that AA exists and to argue otherwise puts you in the distinct minority. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You keep saying I am making anecdotes which are irrelevant. But I could also say that affirmative action was a myth- which common sense indicates the contrary- since I have actually not seen any concrete evidence and probably 90% of people arguing here have never been on the admission board to see how affirmative action works.

[/quote]
Then you are wrong.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So to be sincere Mr Payne everything you have said from the beginning because it lacks any concrete evidence is irrelevant.

[/quote]
Considering that I'm arguing values primarily I don't really see any need to put up evidence.</p>

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<p>So you don't attend a top school and so have not had any experience with the demographics of minority population. You also use data from where? Most of these data are probably 5 years old or more? You also say you don't care about race ??? But affirmative action is about race. Let me spell out an 8 point FAQ about affirmative action.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>why is their affirmative action? I don't know the exact reason but it is probably to increase minority enrollment- specifically black and hispanic students in schools especially top schools</p></li>
<li><p>But why do these students need affirmative action. Are they so stupid that they can't meet a standard? These students have to be given a bump because they have grown in socio-economic situations that have disadvantaged them in the education process. Also the US is still an inherently racist country no matter what everyone wants to believe. Minorities aren't present in mainstream society except as- subway waiter (Pakistanis and Indians), Cab Drivers (African immigrants), Laundry (Koreans), Janitors, maids and low income workers (African-Americans), Cooks and menial job holders (Mexicans). Look around the US carefully and you would notice these differences. Affirmative action is a temporary (I hope) program to try and change this and move this people into society. I don't believe affirmative action is efficacious in helping change society but that is what happens.</p></li>
<li><p>Th people who decided to implement affirmative actions are white people. This is very important- Not the mythical powerful group of African-Americans who created this program to reduce asian enrollment- but whites who were aware of the social injustices in their country. They are what is called in political circles as liberals. Now not every white or human being is like this and that is why we have racism and stupid people like Mr Payne arguing about AA without knowing the exact reason. I the whole world decided to stop being racist (probably never) maybe it would be easier for African-American to move within society and AA would be eliminated.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>-What about the poor Asians? The only group who is marginalized by this policies. Ok lets face it. Asian just became an important part of the American demographics a few years ago. If not for the civil right movement- Asians and minorities would not be allowed to attend some schools (I wouldn't either no matter how smart I am though I am not from the US). The civil rights ushered the politically correct AA programs at top schools. Asian being excluded as casualities was not intentional but they are the casualities.</p>

<p>-Why can't minorities like african-americans work hard like we super smart hardworking Asians? Do they have a problem ( a question I am sure Mr Payne and every asian is asking themselves)? Well it is difficult to work hard when you are placed in inner city public school. It is difficult to work hard when you are part of a cycle that started 100s of years ago that made it impossible for you to get out off. Also when you are african-american and work hard, get into a school- maybe on AA- you come out you are still black. Enough said.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>About the black middle-class students who get AA? I am really ****ed off whenever I hear these statements. How large is the black-middle class? It was just a few decades ago when america was still segregated and very few blacks were allowed in good middle class jobs. How fast do you think change takes place? The large number of blacks in my school aren't middle-class. Except if the definitions of middle-class has changed these people are definitely not middle class.</p></li>
<li><p>Will AA be eliminated- Not really. Like racism, AA will probably stay for a long time. People might argue about its states such as Michigan and California but<br>
these schools still use a form of AA that is not as overt as before. Thankfully, people like Mr Payne and Mohammad Wong would not be in a position to affect policy.</p></li>
<li><p>Doesn't AA breed resentment- yeah it does. Against blacks who did not even have a role in the formulation of this policy and have always been the scapegoats of everything in the US. It is ironic that whites who perpetuate racism are calling wolf or claim reverse discrimination on a program they made. I never heard Martin Luther King call for affirmative action. I believe AA was a program that whites made to make them feel less guilty without actually changing how society operated. Despite AA, top schools are still 80% white. Seriously who is being discriminated against?</p></li>
<li><p>Ok, I understand why AA was implemented so why do some ignorant people will complain about it: Well this world will always be plagued by ignorant people irregardless of race. These people don't care about anyone but themselves. If a fire is burning someone, as long as it does not concern them or people that look like them then they don't mind. For example, the student who complains that he got rejected at Yale and got into Columbia because of AA. He still goes outside discriminates against people and complains that they are being given a bump. If America was not a country of injustices there would never be need for AA. Don't blame the grass, blame the elephant.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>But then there would always be sensible people in this world. I have lots of Asian friends are they are the nicest group of people I have ever met. The ones I meet on online discussion are exceptions to the rule.</p>

48

<p>Laughable, really. That's all there is to say.</p>

49

<p>cool...no counterargument just laughable. Good way to concede an argument. Damn..I have to start studying for my orgo final.</p>

50

<p>Well ****. You got me back in.</p>

<p>
[quote]
- why is their affirmative action? I don't know the exact reason but it is probably to increase minority enrollment- specifically black and hispanic students in schools especially top schools

[/quote]
It's to increase enrollment to a level which mirrors the general population. It doesn't only go for top schools, it goes on down the entire ladder.</p>

<p>
[quote]
- But why do these students need affirmative action. Are they so stupid that they can't meet a standard? These students have to be given a bump because they have grown in socio-economic situations that have disadvantaged them in the education process. Also the US is still an inherently racist country no matter what everyone wants to believe. Minorities aren't present in mainstream society except as- subway waiter (Pakistanis and Indians), Cab Drivers (African immigrants), Laundry (Koreans), Janitors, maids and low income workers (African-Americans), Cooks and menial job holders (Mexicans). Look around the US carefully and you would notice these differences. Affirmative action is a temporary (I hope) program to try and change this and move this people into society. I don't believe affirmative action is efficacious in helping change society but that is what happens.

[/quote]

1) Are they too stupid? Well, the scores would indicate that on average they aren't at the same level...that's why they're underrepresented. That's why Asians are overrepresented....because they are better candidates.
2) All URMs get a bump simply from their race.
3) The US is inherently racist? Newsflash: people are inherently "racist". They are untrusting of people not like themselves...everywhere, not just the US! It's called human nature.
4) You start stereotyping like all the different ethnicities. Hilarious.</p>

<p>
[quote]
- Th people who decided to implement affirmative actions are white people. This is very important- Not the mythical powerful group of African-Americans who created this program to reduce asian enrollment- but whites who were aware of the social injustices in their country. They are what is called in political circles as liberals. Now not every white or human being is like this and that is why we have racism and stupid people like Mr Payne arguing about AA without knowing the exact reason. I the whole world decided to stop being racist (probably never) maybe it would be easier for African-American to move within society and AA would be eliminated.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>5) Now I'm stupid? I don't hear that very often.</p>

<p>Ad hominem attack. No reason to continue, you have nothing.</p>

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<p>I have to say, I'm very offended by post #48. You don't know any minority lawyers, engineers, physicians, businessmen? Asians are present in the US exclusively as waiters and laundry servicepeople?</p>

<p>And Asians haven't been an important part except recently? The Chinese Exclusion Acts? Railroad labor? Chinatown? Come on. This is all tangential to affirmative action, but seriously -- resorting to ethnic caricatures and dismissing four generations' worth of American history (and oppression) is just plain offensive.</p>

52

<p>
[quote]
I have to say, I'm very offended by post #48. You don't know any minority lawyers, engineers, physicians, businessmen? Asians are present in the US exclusively as waiters and laundry servicepeople?</p>

<p>And Asians haven't been an important part except recently? The Chinese Exclusion Acts? Railroad labor? Chinatown? Come on. This is all tangential to affirmative action, but seriously -- resorting to ethnic caricatures and dismissing four generations' worth of American history (and oppression) is just plain offensive.

[/quote]
Seriously. The level of immaturity was staggering.</p>

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<p>I am sure you know what I meant Bluedevilmike. Their are minority lawyers and doctors and stuff like that. However, please take time to check your surroundings and notice what people usually hold low income jobs. It seems you guys just pick a part of my argument without thinking of what I meant. Their are definitely minority lawyers and doctors e.t.c but there is still a need for more minorities in middle class position. Agreed caucasians are the majority but a society in which people that look different from the majority should hold the worst jobs is wrong.</p>

<p>East Asians weren't a major part of the civil rights movement. Please if anyone finds anything contrary to this post it. The civil rights movement changed the situation of other minorities the same way that it also improved the plights of minorities not only in the US but in European countries. However, it was mainly an african-American movement that made people aware of societies injustice. Please go to wikipedia (not perfectly accurate) and check civil rights -</p>

<p>Civil</a> rights movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>That isn't even part of my argument. My main point is that-please read and think carefully- when affirmative action was implemented it wasn't meant to be detrimental to any race. It was meant to change the status of a african-americans.You mention the chinese exclusion acts and railroad acts. How many asians are direct descendants of people affected by these? Sorry Bluedevilmike but when AA was being implemented the people being considered then were african-americans. No one thought of the side-effects. Now that we are aware of the side effects maybe a better policy could be made to try and improve society without hurting asians but for now this is sadly what we have.</p>

<p>Also, the majority of Asian-Americans are second- or third- generation. At least in my school, 80% of them are second to third and you would be surprised to know that I know 80% of them. My school is not a representative of all schools but it is damn close. </p>

<p>Affirmative action is controversial because it is used at top schools. No one cares if a minority got into some cal state school. They are angry when they see a minority at princeton with a 1300...or so I gather from the majority of the posts I see. I have never met anyone who said that minority got into Ohio state university because he is (insert). Also top schools- i did not form this opinion so don't attack me- are seen as the gate to success and the opportunity to enter the upper-middle class and hence the anger.</p>

<ul>
<li>Mr Payne, you make no mention of why URM scores are not at average. I gave you the reason but you pick your arguments. They are average because of how society is structured.</li>
<li>i did not stereotype races. I live in DC and I have been to many places. This is what I see in American society. When you see a dog you call it a dog. I am angry that society is like this and want a change. I don't want to see the majority of people in the service industry to be of a particular race. That is a stratified society.</li>
<li>The US isn't inherent racist. American society is. It is not as bad as before plus please don't say things have changed perfectly.</li>
</ul>

<p>I find you actually silly, because you always pick part of my arguments and comment on it when even a ten year old can understant why I kept the comment. I included the ethnicities and supposedly streotyped them to indicate a stratified society. Also most of your comments don't have to do with the point I am making.</p>

<p>Not worried though, knowing human being's you would still come here and look at what I wrote. However if you can't give a concrete reason for criticising AA except that it is unfair to Asians and Caucasian while glossing over the fact that discrimination was the cause for a need of A then refrain from typing.</p>

54

<p>It just occurred to me that I would never win this argument. I am not going to change anyones opinion about AA and neither would anyone change my opinion. So I am just going to get high on weed now and chill.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
East Asians weren't a major part of the civil rights movement.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But they were a part of it (they just didn't have the pop. mass).</p>

<p>
[quote]
I gave you the reason but you pick your arguments. They are average because of how society is structured.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So what type of "bump" should a black applicant who grew up in an upper-middle class suburb w/ highly educated, professional parents get?</p>

<p>While, say, a 50-80 point difference in test scores is immaterial in the interest of having a diverse student-body, when we start getting to a 150+ point difference, other applicants should not be penalized.</p>

<p>Such URM opportunities should, instead, go to low-income URMs (despite having lower scores) who do not have all the socio-economic advantages.</p>

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<p>To be serious I wanted to drop this subject because as I said there is no winner. I believe such an applicant ^ should not get any bump. But I am not on an admission committee so my opinion means jack**** to anyone. Also, I don't know if such an applicant gets a bump and it would be unfair to give them one. However, it is likely that if Harvard is going to meet a certain number of black students in their school they might have to "adjust" standards to meet this requirement. So it is not just a matter of socio-economic disadvantage.</p>

<p>Also are you talking of a 150+ bump in the lsats??? i thought it was just around 180 so the student must have gotten a 30? You probably mean on the SATs. Well the 150 points is ridiculous but from my perspective is someone who got into Princeton with a 1400 different from another who got a 1550? consider the difference in the number of right answers is probably 10 questions.</p>

<p>Ok to more important stuff. Does anyone know what are the best textbooks for studying for the LSATs? (I hate being one of those people asking stupid questions but I really need help)</p>

57

<p>
[quote]
You mention the chinese exclusion acts and railroad acts. How many asians are direct descendants of people affected by these?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You do realize that the Asian exclusion acts of the 1800s did just that, right? They EXCLUDED all but a trickle of Asian immigrants from entering the country legally. This legislation wasn't lifted for 60 years (around the 1940s). OBVIOUSLY there aren't that many 3rd+ generation Asians as a result. </p>

<p>
[quote]
However, it is likely that if Harvard is going to meet a certain number of black students in their school they might have to "adjust" standards to meet this requirement.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's the whole anti-AA argument. Why adjust those standards only for a few desirable ethnicities? Why cut slack for a URM over an ORM?</p>

58

<p>The Chinese who entered the US before statues were enacted prohibiting further Asian immigration were nearly all males, brought here by Leland Stanford to work on his railroad. They were forbidden to marry outside of their race under the anti-miscegenation statutes that most states had in those days. As a consequence, most of them died childless.</p>

<p>When I was in college, the people for whom the standards had been most egregiously adjusted were children of wealthy alumni. My first roommate was, to put it charitably, not the brightest bulb in the pack, but he was the son of a wealthy Congressman who was an alumnus of the school, which sealed the deal for him.</p>

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<p>It is unfair and the numbers don’t lie if you look at the average scores for medical schools and the average scores of URM who get in. I mean i understand why the laws were in place but it does not change the fact that it is still unfair. For example I applied to A Medical school that a URM friend of mine applied to. I had the same GPA of 3.8 but i had a 34 MCAT and he had a 28 MCAT we were both out of state. I had way more clinical experience and things such as the peace corp on my application. He not only got an interview and excepted but told me straight up that his interviewer said that they normally don’t take MCATS that low but they need to fill minority quota. I on the other hand did not even get an interview. Take what you want from this but these are the facts. Now granted it is hard to get into this medschool if you are out of state.</p>

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<p>Just registered, 1 post from 4 years ago? Hello ■■■■■.</p>