<p>But it doesnt answer the question. Waaaaah!!!</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/728250-liberal-arts-colleges-perceived-second-tier.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/728250-liberal-arts-colleges-perceived-second-tier.html</a></p>
<p>The biggest problem LACs have today is how do they compete with universities in the AP/IB era, where virtually every freshman talented enough to get into an elite college will have qualified for about a years worth of academic credit through AP/IB and will need appropriate graduate, law and professional school classes in the traditional fourth year of college.</p>
<p>The full boat paying parents at LACs (usually about 50% of the class) will not continue to tolerate $50,000 to $60,000 per year expenses to repeat work already mastered and the students themselves will want the five year masters degrees and guaranteed law/medical school admissions the big universities are equipped to offer. If the big universities appropriately market themselves, they are in an ever increasing position to dispose of LAC competition as the fresheman classes in all these schools get flooded with IB diplomatists, and AP Scholars with Distinction.</p>
<p>(If the LACs try to reverse this trend by denying AP/IB credit, they will look ever more ridiculous since they gave credit to students routintely for honors AP/IB work in the past and will even subject themselves to the charge of being anti-intellectual.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the laugh, vienna. Where do you come up with these ideas?</p>
<p>Reed does not accept AP credits as prerequisites. Instead, they only count for meeting the total number of credits required for graduation. It’s not really a crazy idea.</p>
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<p>IME, the LACs and elite universities have very good reasons for limiting AP/IB credit to fulfilling elective, limited distribution requirements, and especially basic intro-level courses for majors…and often only if the AP test score is a 4 or even a 5. </p>
<p>First, the level of preparation demonstrated by AP/IB kids even demonstrating the absolute best marks is often well-below the minimal standards and expectations of a comparable course taught at the LAC and elite universities. </p>
<p>At my LAC and an Ivy where I took a few courses, I’ve witnessed far too many AP/IB classmates with top AP/IB marks who ended up struggling to a C grade or even failing many courses covering content they supposedly mastered through their AP/IB marks in a wide variety of course ranging from European history to Statistics. I’m sorry…but struggling mightily for a mediocre C/C- is not a good demonstration of mastery of anything. </p>
<p>Second, several Profs from my LAC and friends who teach/TA at a few Ivies have complained that most AP courses don’t cover the topic to the same depth or rigor as the comparable courses offered by most topflight LACs or universities. In fact, most of those institutions use a student’s AP/IB more as a way to demonstrate that they are adequately prepared for their introductory curriculum…not as a substitute. </p>
<p>Third, I find it quite ironic you’re using the term anti-intellectual as that is more apt in describing undergrads/parents who are trying to use AP/IB credit as a way to cut corners in the undergraduate education process. </p>
<p>Especially considering LACs IME tend to be much more flexible than larger bureaucratic universities in allowing students to take higher-level courses without having to take the prereqs if they can make their case through a consultation with the Prof. teaching the advanced course. That was how I was able to take several advanced seminar courses at my LAC without having to take the prereqs…and without having to invoke any AP/IB credits.</p>
<p>Selective LACs compete very well with selective universities for law and med school admissions. For PhD completions, on a per capita basis, LACs generally out-compete universities. LACs have long been under market pressures due to increasing costs and demand for career “relevance”, but I’m not sure I understand this IB/AP argument.</p>
<p>Is vienna man suggesting that American education is becoming more like European education? All the general education is covered in high school, so you can cut to the chase and start specializing immediately in college.
If that’s what we’re saying, then yes, if costs keep going up, I can imagine a time when the LAC as we know it hardly exists.</p>
<p>No question that American education should celebrate the excellence shown by our top students in the IB/AP programs and Yes we should be going to a European three year model for our best students. God knows our society needs to have talented Ph.Ds, MDs and JDs sooner rather than later. There is no good reason to keep the top 3 or 4% of our students, who have achieved 4 and 5 level work on APs and IB diplomas from the type of opportunity they deserve. That is what I am talking about here.</p>
<p>What I am positing is that at a university a meaningful fourth year of study with appropriate graduate level instruction and courses is possible where at a four year LAC, the talented student (my upper four percenters) will run out of challenge and choices. Maybe the LAC’s mission evolves to serving the lower 96% in the future.</p>
<p>“I’m not sure I understand this IB/AP argument.”</p>
<p>He’s saying that if they come in with a lot of AP credit they want to skip into classes and go on to more advanced courses. Only to get stifled by the relative lack of advanced level courses offered at the LAC, due to insufficient # profs in subject areas, courses given only every other year, sub-areas of a field left uncovered there due to lack of staff in those sub-areas, etc.</p>
<p>This is not a theroretical point, it actually happened to my daughter and to Marites’ son, if you care to wade through that old thread I linked. Their schools thankfully did not force them to repeat courses they took in AP, but had too little at the senior year end to make up for it, in the opinion of these two students, in the particular areas they wound up being interested in.</p>
<p>“…most of those institutions use a student’s AP/IB more as a way to demonstrate that they are adequately prepared for their introductory curriculum…not as a substitute”</p>
<p>Not yours. It uses them as a substitute. Frankly I don’t know what you’re talking about, D1 came in there, to your LAC, with a zillion credits from APs, and did not have to repeat any of those courses. If that was not going to be the case she wouldn’t have attended there. She didn’t want to “tread water” and repeat things she’d already learned, she wanted to expand her capabilities and knowledge, to the greatest extent possible.</p>
<p>She should have gone to a university. Or an LAC with a viable consortium relationship with a university.</p>
<p>There will also always be people like cobrat who will entertain us with the anecdotal stories about National AP scholars suddenly becomming dullards in college. Helping these folks is why colleges have academic and psychological counseling. Sound academic policy should not be sacrificed to a few AP Scholars with distinction discovering beer or lethargy in college. Most top scoring AP and IB students become the summas and magnas of their schools (and should be off doing grad level work in their fourth college year).</p>
<p>“The full boat paying parents at LACs (usually about 50% of the class) will not continue to tolerate $50,000 to $60,000 per year expenses to repeat work already mastered …”</p>
<p>Is there evidence for this claim?</p>
<p>For a top student who is very focused on on one technical area, I can understand VM’s argument. On the other hand, if you can afford the time to explore, there is something to be said for breadth, too. I would hope that some of those top 3%-4% are not specializing too much, too soon. A good LAC has more than enough to keep most good students busy without rehashing HS material.</p>
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<p>When I said substitute, I meant being able to exempt oneself completely from credit requirements so one could graduate earlier. Oberlin may grant you some AP/IB credit, but you would still have to take the next level course to fulfill the same major/minor/distribution requirements and fulfill the same/slightly fewer number of credits to graduate. Even so, the granting of AP/IB credit was far more limited than what even many state flagships and lower-tiered private universities would do…which was in-line with what I saw was common practice at other LACs and elite colleges.</p>
<p>Moreover, in the case of LACs like Oberlin, you don’t even need AP/IB credits to “skip ahead” to taking higher level courses if you can go before the Prof of the advanced course and make a credible case you’re prepared and/or willing to do any pre-course readings on your own before that course starts. Wasn’t an issue IME. </p>
<p>As for your daughter’s problems getting the advanced courses she needs, has she looked into taking private readings of courses that are unavailable or a self-designed one with her Prof(s) during the terms she wants to take them? I’ve had no problems doing so during my undergrad career. </p>
<p>Also, your point that universities offer graduate courses may not always be a leg-up over LACs as you may think. One friend who was a mediocre student and was on academic probation at Oberlin took a few graduate courses at an Ivy…including one course meant for advanced grad students preparing for their PhD oral/written exams as a special student and the only difference he found was a slight increase in the quantity of work in one of those courses. Overall, the rigor was comparable at best…and sometimes far less than what he experienced in the intermediate and advanced seminar courses in Oberlin. He was also quite ****ed off at hearing many Ivy masters students complaining about 300 page/week per course reading loads as he said that’s comparable to what he had in his intro and intermediate LAC courses and more importantly, made him wonder WTH were they expecting from grad school. </p>
<p>Heard similar accounts from other LAC and a few Ivy/peer graduates(Mostly UChicago and Princeton graduates) who are now grad students at various institutions including Ivies/peer institutions.</p>
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<p>FYI: My account is not only from observing many classmates at Oberlin and many Ivy/peer institutions, but also from serving as an academic tutor for the few who realized they were woefully underprepared despite the large number of AP/IB courses taken and high scores. </p>
<p>Doing this as a great part-time gig was how I was able to substantially defray expenses not covered by my college’s near-full ride…and quite revealing in the widely varying levels of rigor in the AP/IB courses depending on high school attended and region. The latter was further confirmed by several college classmates who teach high school at various well-off suburban public and expensive private/boarding schools. </p>
<p>In a surprising number of cases, the rigor of the AP/IB curriculum at one school wouldn’t even meet the minimal standards of a college prep/“standard” course at another.</p>
<p>cobrat- the kindof school you describe, where “top scorng” AP and IB scholars struggle with Cs and C-s must truly be a sad place. Normally, a college uplifts and makes students sharper and better. It is really sad that there is an environment where that does not happen. So sad.</p>
<p>" A good LAC has more than enough to keep most good students busy without rehashing HS material. "</p>
<p>There are good students who don’t want to be “kept busy”. They want to pursue their interests, to the extent they decide they desire to do so, and as these interests unfold and become evident to them. They don’t want to settle for what happens to be there, they want to go where they want to go, unfettered by limitations of their school. To the extent possible. the smaller the offerings portfolio, the greater the chance that these unfolding interests will lie fallow. In favor of being “kept busy” with things they would not have preferred, if only the particular course they would preferred had been offered there.</p>
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<p>More sad was how most who had this issue went to supposedly “superior” well-off suburban public and private/boarding schools. </p>
<p>In contrast, I’m a product of the “inferior” NYC public education system. :D</p>
<p>Colleges, including LACs can uplift and make students sharper. </p>
<p>However, the students must be prepared, put in the required work, and take the initiative to seek out challenges to that end. Preferably without having to be prompted by the level of micromanagement one would expect from high school teachers/parents and having these opportunities fall into their lap without taking any/enough initiative to seek them out.</p>
<p>Cobrat-feel better about yourself. That “inferior” (your words) NYC public school system produced Daniel Moynihan and Henry Kissinger among others.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>That was sarcasm to illustrate the fallacious attitudes I’ve encountered/observed from many parents and/or their kids…including a few here on cc who seem to view those who attended the NYC public schools…or any urban/“inner-city” public school as academically “inferior” to those who attended the well-off suburban publics or preferably “superior” private/boarding schools.</p>
<p>one peron’s sincere respect becomes another person’s perceived sarcasm.</p>
<p>"…has she looked into taking private readings of courses that are unavailable or a self-designed one with her Prof(s) during the terms she wants to take them? "
Nobody there was knowledgable or interested in what she was doing. One’s education should not depend on the whim of some prof to help you, to the extent that can be avoided. It didn’t happen.</p>
<p>“I’ve had no problems doing so during my undergrad career.”
Bully for you, I guess one can at best say it is hit or miss then, depending on what you’re wanting to do and the discretion of faculty. “Hit or miss” is a poor substitute for actually having courses.</p>
<p>“I meant being able to exempt oneself completely from credit requirements so one could graduate earlier.”</p>
<p>Actually I think she could have graduated earlier, if she wanted to. It was a moot point for her since she didn’t want to graduate early, and didn’t. However interested parties should check on this aspect carefully, if they care.</p>