Universities over LACs?

College Search & Selection
101

<p>New College was great, but it was definitely my safety school. Thankfully I was accepted to Reed, which was my first choice.</p>

<p>My comment was more regarding the implications of not having a GPA, such as financial aid packages (or lack thereof). New College and Hampshire both have excellent records of students getting into their top choice graduate programs.</p>

<p>The reason I was so interested in Reed to begin with was the deemphasis of GPA, to an only slightly lesser extent than Hampshire or NCF. A student has to request transcripts to know their GPA and otherwise only receives “Satisfactory” (C or higher) or “Unsatisfactory” (below a C) on their grade reports, and I know many seniors who have gone all four years without officially seeing their letter grades.</p>

102

<p>“LACs are meant for undergraduate education while most universities offer professional degrees, so of course they would have a higher overall course selection. It would be absurd for a university offering many, many, many more years worth of degrees to have a smaller course selection than an undergraduate facility.”</p>

<p>More years worth true, but the universities also offer many, many more undergraduate level courses in the arts & sciences to those of their undergraduate students who are pursuing undergraduate studies in their Arts & Sciences colleges. And, importantly, the more common undergraduate courses will tend to be offered in more sections and more frequently. ie not every other year, therefore increasing scheduling flexibility and the chance that you will actually be able to take them.</p>

<p>"As far as those courses that are generally available to undergraduates, I highly doubt that many universities offers the same depth as the curriculum for the same course at a top LACs. "</p>

<p>I’m not sure whether you mean course offerings within a discipline, or content of each course, but either way I highly doubt that you are correct, as a blanket statement. </p>

<p>As for the former, here is a quote from elsewhere on CC:</p>

<p>"The fall 2010 courses are as follows:</p>

<p>Cornell</p>

<p>GREEK
Introductory Greek I
Intermediate Greek II
Greek Historiography
Advanced Readings: Euripides</p>

<p>LATIN
Elementary Latin
Latin in Review (transition from AP)
Intermediate Latin
Latin Prose
Roman Epic
Advanced Readings: Ovid
Latin Paleography </p>

<p>CIVILIZATION
Greek Culture
Greek Mythology
Theater, Sport and Spectacle
Periclean Athens
Topics in the Ancient Mediterranean
History of Rome I
Medieval to Renaissance in Greek Literature
Greeks, Romans, and Victorians
Plato</p>

<p>[Note: I left out over a half dozen ancient philosophy and art classes that should count.]</p>

<p>Middlebury </p>

<p>GREEK
Intermediate Greek I
Advanced Readings</p>

<p>LATIN
Readings in Latin Literature
Advanced Readings I
Advanced Readings III</p>

<p>CIVILIZATION
Archaic/Classical Greece
Greek/Roman Epic Poetry
Classical Literature</p>

<p>Granted, that isn’t that bad. In terms of Classics offerings, Middlebury is undoubtedly one of the better LACs out there. My point was simply that, in any given semester, a university is likely to offer somewhere between two and three times as many courses in any given subject. Considering how prone students are to schedule conflicts (the bane of my existence!), that’s quite a nice plus. "</p>

<p>As for the latter, here is another quote from CC:</p>

<p>"Here’s a brief anecdote. </p>

<p>When I was at Bryn Mawr, I took introductory Japanese at Haverford. It was hands down the toughest course I’d ever taken, but also very rewarding. Harvard uses the same curriculum as Haverford, so I figured that after I transferred, I could start second-year Japanese. Come to find out that I would have to start over…because Harvard uses the same Japanese curriculum as Haverford, but moves through the material exactly TWICE as fast. So my first year of Japanese at Haverford only covered the first semester at Harvard. That’s regular speed; Harvard also offers accelerated Japanese, which covers the material of the entire four-year bachelor’s program at Haverford in the first year. So if you want to know if Harvard offers tough courses, that’s one apples-to-apples comparison. "</p>

<p>and another:</p>

<p>“I transferred to Harvard after two years of classes at Bryn Mawr/Haverford. The workload in similar fields was similar, but the standard of writing expected in humanities and social science classes at Harvard was far higher. I got an A in my full-year freshman writing class at Bryn Mawr. But as a Harvard junior taking a Core English class in a section full of freshmen, I wasn’t able to get better than an A-minus despite working much, much harder on my papers than I had at Bryn Mawr. You will not be an A student at Harvard without being an excellent writer.” </p>

<p>D2 has taken courses at Barnard, Columbia and Cornell, and she reported the level was about the same at all. At first she thought they graded harder at Cornell but I think that was just some initial adjustment.</p>

<p>All in all I think the course difficulty likely varies among particular institutions more than institution type, based in good part on student capabilities. And moreso yet between particular majors, even within the same institution.</p>

103

<p>Pixie, how are we doing? Do you some good pro-big-U arguments?</p>

104

<p>"Cornell</p>

<p>GREEK
Introductory Greek I
Intermediate Greek II
Greek Historiography
Advanced Readings: Euripides</p>

<p>LATIN
Elementary Latin
Latin in Review (transition from AP)
Intermediate Latin
Latin Prose
Roman Epic
Advanced Readings: Ovid
Latin Paleography </p>

<p>CIVILIZATION
Greek Culture
Greek Mythology
Theater, Sport and Spectacle
Periclean Athens
Topics in the Ancient Mediterranean
History of Rome I
Medieval to Renaissance in Greek Literature
Greeks, Romans, and Victorians
Plato"</p>

<p>Greek Historiography
Advanced Readings: Euripides
Greek Culture
Greek Mythology
Theater, Sport and Spectacle
Periclean Athens
Topics in the Ancient Mediterranean
History of Rome I
Medieval to Renaissance in Greek Literature
Greeks, Romans, and Victorians
Plato</p>

<p>^In all fairness, most of this and more is covered in my Humanities 110 course, which is required for all freshmen. The course selection may be wider (more separated by specificity in the intro levels rather than being given in a context that would provide a holistic view, as is the goal of a LAC), but as I said, the depth of said courses doesn’t seem to be as great. We also offer first year, second year, and advanced Greek as a foreign language.</p>

105

<p>^^ monydad</p>

<p>That wouldn’t be the case with Chinese language at Oberlin which I know of from firsthand experience and from having some classmates there taking Chinese language classes during the summer or as grad students at Harvard. </p>

<p>If anything, we’ve felt the Harvard language courses ranged from moving at a slower pace/covering less depth* than comparable Oberlin equivalents to being quite comparable(Language courses geared for grad students).</p>

<p>In fact, Oberlin’s Chinese language faculty has been able to offer the range/depth of instruction that several classmates who later went on to study Chinese studies fields in grad school have said ranged from comparable or even better than what their Ivy grad schools had. </p>

<p>Can’t speak personally for Japanese language program at Oberlin…but I wouldn’t be surprised if the same applied as it seems to be run on similar lines as the Chinese program from what I heard from classmates who took Japanese there. </p>

<ul>
<li>To test into into the Oberlin’s third year Chinese course, they’d had to do some extra work to catch up to not only pass that placement exam…but to not fall behind once the course started.</li>
</ul>

106

<p>A couple other old posts of relevance, from the cc poster who actually experienced both environments:</p>

<p>">in what ways did you feel stifled at the LAC?</p>

<p>Primarily because of the smaller number of options. These are all real examples I experienced. You want to take any classes in clinical psychology? There are only three, and they’re all taught by the same professor. You think that professor’s an airhead? Too bad. You want to take another political science seminar? You’ll be taking it with the same 15 students who were in your last political science seminar, whose opinions you’ve already heard all last semester. You want to be in a mainstage play this semester? Here’s your ONE choice, and it’s an experimental post-modernist adaptation of a Gertrude Stein piece. You want to do psychology field research as a sophomore? These are the four areas that are currently being studied by the faculty – hope one of them is actually related to what you want to do."</p>

<p>and -</p>

<p>“I mentored nine semesters’ worth of transfers who came to Harvard from all the remaining Seven Sisters colleges (including Smith, Bryn Mawr, Mt. Holyoke, and Wellesley) – the only people who are actually in a position to make the comparison and answer the question. It was my job to help them deal with all the surprises and challenges of making the transition, so I heard their complaints as well as their questions. Take a wild guess about whether a single one of them reported that they had to take a step backwards academically when they began their Harvard classes.”</p>

107

<p>monydad: just to clarify, what LAC did your daughter attend?</p>

108

<p>cobrat:
Chinese at Oberlin is very good for an LAC, with excellent instructors. But they offer nothing as intensive as FALCON at Cornell, for one.They have relatively few instructors, and offer few sections of upper level courses. </p>

<p>D1s close acquaintance went through the whole sequence save the last course, is still not fluent and is taking more courses after graduation to get their needed level of proficiency. Also encountered scheduling difficulties along the way that prevented taking desired courses due to the need to take the only one, or at most two, sections of intermediate and/or advanced level instruction in the language that were available. And precisely this type of scheduling conflict prevented them from taking the last course in the sequence in the end; the one, or two at most, available sections offered conflicted with courses they needed to complete a major in another area. I heard all about this whining as it was taking place.</p>

<p>“^In all fairness”
As if your curriculum was typical of most LACs, or you have any perspective on what is actually covered in all these courses…
fairness, ha.</p>

<p>“…what LAC did your daughter attend?”
D1 attended Oberlin, which is one of the largest LACs and therefore likely offers more courses than most of them. D2 attended Barnard before transfering. Marite’s son, who encountered a similar scenario as D1, attended Wesleyan, which is also one of the larger LACs and hence likely offers more than most of them. If such can occur at these larger LACs, which likely offer more courses than most of the others, I believe it is yet more likely to happen at most others which are smaller and have yet fewer faculty. Save, perhaps, for the few that offer truly viable consortium arrangements. The issue is size, therefore extent of offerings.</p>

<p>D2 had no issue with offerings, due to consortium and didn’t stay to the end anyway. But had other issues, including fit with predominant campus culture which can be important at these small schools.</p>

109

<p>Not necessarily. I know Skidmore offers an outrageous amount of disciplines, but to each their own I suppose. They had their experiences, I am currently having mine with no such obstacles.</p>

110

<p>I agree that if someone has a rare specialized interest (like a language), an LAC may not be the best. Ex: Pomona doesn’t offer Italian, so Pomona students take Italian classes at Scripps. On another note, I think taking language classes at school is a waste of time. It’s much more rewarding to learn in the country where the language is spoken (and probably cheaper). </p>

<p>And mony, our opinions are a result of first-hand experience and the people we’re around. I don’t think making a statement like “in all fairness” is an exaggeration. MOST students do not feel restricted by LAC course offerings. And the beauty of LACs is that if you want something, the school will go out of its way to help you. A friend was pretty good at Spanish and wanted to keep it up. He decided to audit a class. When he got there, he thought that the class was too easy and it wouldn’t help him. He asked the professor for advice, and the professor suggested that they eat lunch together once a week to have conversations in Spanish. That doesn’t happen at larger schools.</p>

111

<p>Exactly. I also had dinner at a professor’s house as a post-first semester celebration, as well as to discuss the course material to help prepare us more for our final.</p>

112

<p>

</p>

<p>Your daughter’s acquaintance is the exception, IME. </p>

<p>The vast majority of Oberlin Chinese language students IME…including non-native speakers are often able to speak quite fluently by the completion of the third year sequence. Many non-native speakers who completed third year, in fact, speak so well that if you spoke to them over the phone or were otherwise invisible while speaking Mandarin, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether they were native speakers or not. </p>

<p>Then again, to gain such proficiency in any language regardless of the program enrolled does require much practice and effort…both during the course and when the sequence of courses is over.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not necessarily. Taking college language classes can be a great way to start learning and gaining proficiency…especially for non-native speakers taking languages not based on the Western alphabet. However, as with all learning experiences, the degree of attainment rests on two things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Quality, rigor, and flexibility of the faculty and curriculum offered.</p></li>
<li><p>More importantly, the willingness to take the initiative to devote much effort and practice above and beyond completing course material. IME, the vast majority who end up being fluent at the end of the third year sequence were able to do this in spades…and never broke a sweat because they were so passionate and engaged with the language anyways. Then again, the best college students in any field tended to do this as a matter of course.</p></li>
</ol>

113

<p>"And the beauty of LACs is that if you want something, the school will go out of its way to help you. "</p>

<p>Perhaps, but selectively at their discretion, and in any event that’s a sorry substitute for them actually having what you want in the first place.</p>

<p>"And mony, our opinions are a result of first-hand experience "
what is your personal first-hand experience with the entire Classics program at Cornell which you claimed to have completely covered, in its entirety, in your freshman seminar? Is it possible that actually you have no personal familiarity with that set of courses at all but are just saying stuff anyway?</p>

<p>“Your daughter’s acquaintance is the exception, IME.”
could be possibly so for attained proficiency, I don’t know, but as for similar pattern of course conflicts in upper years, doubtful it’s that rare.</p>

114

<p>I’m talking about LAC offerings, not university offerings. We’re offering the LAC point of view. Relax. </p>

<p>And I think the smaller student body is a great trade for less course offerings. Especially because that thing that you want that they don’t have is rare- and like I said, they’ll probably find a way to get it to you anyway. A student only takes 32-40 classes in the four years. Pomona offers 600 classes itself, and the entire consortium offers a total of 2200 classes. </p>

<p>Eh, cobrat, I disagree. I feel the same about study abroad. The schools plan your entire program for you and make a lot of money of out it. If you do a little research on your own, you can probably a find a language program in that country that’s just as good and much cheaper. In the country, you’re forced to speak that language, and you get good at it. That’s my experience, anyway. I think it’s especially true for languages like Chinese or Japanese. I think it’s impossible to get fluent in Mandarin without spending a significant amount of time in China.</p>

115

<p>It depends what kind of person you are.</p>

116

<p>You got me, that’s exactly what I said. Except…it’s not? I said much of the material is covered in a holistic manner in the freshman humanities course, not that it covers the entirety of Cornell’s Classics program. However, my LAC does offer one of the top Classics programs in the nation.</p>

<p>It is pretty well established that the Ivies not only do not necessarily offer the top undergraduate education in the U.S. but also have some of the highest grade inflations in the country.</p>

<p>Honestly, no university offered me everything I wanted, but my current school came as close as possible. Like I said, to each their own. We will all have our own experiences and I’m certainly not saying that LACs offer the best programs for every focus. Certainly one of my main focuses, music, is a weak point at most LACs.</p>

117

<p>

</p>

<p>This is not exclusive to LACs. Dozens of high school classmates at various Ivy and other peer universities have also experienced similar issues or heard about it from their college classmates. What’s worse is that most of these universities seem to be far less flexible and willing to find a workable solution for all concerned. </p>

<p>Moreover, the “selectively at their discretion” may also be because the Prof, rightly or wrongly, feels that a given student may not be prepared and/or serious enough for the opportunity/program being asked for. </p>

<p>Though we may all wish it wasn’t so, underprepared and/or half-baked flaky students do exist in all institutions…even at elite LACs and universities. Lost count of the number of rants I kept hearing from friends and college classmates who now teach/TA undergrad courses at various universities…including a few Ivies and including Harvard.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Depends on the LAC. Music is certainly not a weak point at Oberlin.</p>

118

<p>I did say most LACs. A few schools such as Oberlin, Skidmore, etc. do offer fantastic music programs, but the same can not be said for the majority of LACs when you compare them to schools like Florida State University, UNT jazz, UNF jazz, UNCSA, etc. I’m content with the music program at my college, though I wish it had a performance aspect available for its music majors.</p>

119

<p>^^</p>

<p>You have a point. Didn’t mean to start an argument so much as to head off any anticipated fallacious arguments about how unis are superior to LACs. </p>

<p>Especially when the same could be said of most universities as few educational institutions are good, much less excellent in every field.</p>

120

<p>Precisely. :slight_smile: Glad we agree. The thing I also like about LACs is that I can study music while taking intense academic courses to meet all my needs.</p>