Universities over LACs?

College Search & Selection
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<p>This appears to be an attempt to summarize the conclusions, but it falls short. All the points listed as being “offered by LACs” are in fact easily obtainable in universities, and even more so - the academic offerings are much broader and deeper; much more choice at the higher levels. A large university offers these things, plus a lot more.</p>

<p>To me, if there’s an advantage to LACs, it would be the uniformly small group experience and the wonderful, intimate learning experience. That’s a great advantage, if that’s what you’re after. But the university also can offer that, and typically does after you move from entry classes. (And hopefully you bypass them with your APs).</p>

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<p>Claremont McKenna seems to have a very strong program … but it really isn’t the mission of LACs to replicate what is offered at places like SFS, Fletcher, Woodrow Wilson, or SAIS. This is not to say that a LAC can’t be good preparation for successful IR practitioners or scholars. IR is an interdisciplinary field that brings liberal arts and social science disciplines to bear on a set of human problems.</p>

<p>Jean Kilpatrick went to Barnard. Hillary Clinton and Madelein Albright went to Wellesley. Kofi Annan went to Macalester. The current Secretary General of ASEAN went to Claremont McKenna. Many ambassadors went to LACs.</p>

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<p>According to *The Undergraduate Origins of PhD Economists<a href=“John%20J.%20Siegfried%20and%20Wendy%20A.%20Stock”>/i</a>, </p>

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<p>Why other than Harvey Mudd? This is like asking how many technical institutes (MIT etc.) offer studio arts programs as good as RISD, MICA, or CalArts.</p>

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I don’t know what to say! I didn’t actually expect this to turn into a full fledged debate and I cannot express how glad I am that the CC forum exists as a medium for something like this to take place. I am very grateful to all the people who have taken the time to respond on this thread. Your arguments of pros and cons, examples and anecdotes have made everything so much clearer in this timid international’s mind and I am forever grateful to all of you for making this possible. :slight_smile: I have gleaned more from your arguments than I ever would have from independently researching (googling ;)).</p>

<p>Monydad, I am particularly grateful for your posts and examples that again reinstated Universties to their rightful high position in my choices. I had really wanted some pros on Universities, and your posts provided me many!
Of course, LACs still retain their high position on my list too! :slight_smile: But I am glad that I have lots of reasons to love universities for themselves now.</p>

<p>Thank you everyone once again for helping me out. Let the debate continue if you wish it to be so; I don’t mind reading more interesting bits of information. ;)</p>

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<p>Monydad, I believe that the selective cut and paste of my post ignored the most salient statements. </p>

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<p>Why would I prefer to quote one or more anomynous posters when I have direct personal experience, direct knowledge of my sibling, and if needed a ton of information about friends who attended larger universities? Are you suggesting that my anecdotes are not valid because I did not link to a previous post on CC? Since when does hearsay trumps facts? </p>

<p>Here was my statement: </p>

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<p>Further, you quoted this from my post:</p>

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<p>but cut the sentence before this part: “if there are **10 times more **undergraduates at the larger school.” </p>

<p>However, allow me to repeat that the fallacy of discussions such as this one starts when making generalizations. Again, just as universities are different from one another, so are LACs. LACs that are part of a consortum enjoy the benefit of building a specialized curriculum and maintain a larger and more dedicated faculty than schools of the same size. Simply stated, the depth and strength of a program is not universal among LACs … and neither is it at a large university. </p>

<p>However, you do not need to take my word for it. You better than anyone should be able to understand the differences (or similarities) between Oberlin and Barnard. Both are LACs but are they truly comparable? Is UM-Amherst comparable to Harvard or MIT? Do you really believe that all the LAC that are part of the Claremont Consortium compare easily to your daughter’s, to Hanna’s, or to Marite’s first son, and in the SAME degree? </p>

<p>The point is that the comparisons should be made between individual schools, not between “categories” of schools. Students, when preparing a list of potential schools. should (but too few do) evaluate the curriculum of each candidate in great detail. They should analyze the size of the faculty and the depth of the programs. If the school does not seem to offer the type of instructions at one school, chances are that a different school might have decided to gain a competitive advantage in such program.</p>

<p>And, in today’s market, answering to competitive advantages should be the most rewarding alternative. Or at least a much better one that the “one size fits all” and the resulting JOATMON!</p>

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<p>^^</p>

<p>I also feel that monydad is ignoring the fact that the issues his daughter and her acquaintance had at Oberlin may be isolated cases as their experiences were certainly not my experience nor those of the vast majority of classmates during my time there. </p>

<p>If anything, it seemed to be ludicrously easy for me and other Oberlin students to get private readings in advanced courses that were not offered in a specific semester/year or ones not offered as stand-alone courses. Just go to the Professor’s office, consult with him/her about the proposed private reading, make the case you’re prepared, and don’t come across as not serious or a half-baked flake(In short, show you’re interested, passionate, and have not had a past history where you regularly flaked out on said Prof’s or his/her departmental colleagues’ assignments/courses in the past.). </p>

<p>In fact, high school friends attending elite universities…including the Ivies were quite jealous about how accessible our Professors were and how flexible they and the administration were willing to work with us to devise private reading courses not available as stand-alone courses. </p>

<p>Another thing monydad seems to be ignoring is that the same issues also occur at larger elite universities…including the Ivies and especially large state flagships…and they are often far less willing to be flexible in working around such issues compared to their LAC counterparts. </p>

<p>After all, it was the reason some high school classmates turned down OOS admission to UC Berkeley and UCLA. Especially after they heard from their respective UC schools’ admissions guides warning the admitted students to expect to graduate in 5-6 years because of the lack of available offered courses to complete one’s major in a timely manner…and they don’t have the flexibility to allow you to take such critical courses as private readings in the semesters they’re not offered. </p>

<p>Don’t know about you…but being told by the school’s own admissions staff that course shortages/no-offerings in certain semesters/years are such that it will take 5-6 years to graduate is a big red flag and proof that this is not solely a problem with LACs.</p>

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<p>xiggi brings up the very true point that not all LACs are the same, nor are all universities. My mom has been a professor at the University of South Florida which, as of recent years, has grown to be a relatively high ranking public research university. Do you believe that they have fewer scheduling problems than LACs? Due to the massive student body, classes actually fill up very quickly, causing far more scheduling conflicts than I’ve experienced at my LAC. Also, as cobrat said, the chances you are far less likely to be able to do a private study of some sort with the professors should such a scheduling conflict occur.The academics are good for what the university is, but lack in areas such as the available professors and (sometimes excessive) outside help of LACs. However, the university certainly offers many pros when compared to LACs: lower tuition, higher acceptance rate, relatively strong engineering program, fantastic music faculty, pretty well-ranked intercollegiate sports teams, etc. Certainly every place has its faults, or areas in which it is lacking, but you should not generalize what LACs have to offer.</p>

<p>Also remember that since LACs have some of the highest turnouts of graduates continuing to receive their PhD, many of the professors at those top tier universities you so highly praise were themselves graduates of LACs and do believe in their customs and philosophies.</p>

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<p>^^</p>

<p>There’s one arguably negative flipside to the small class sizes, more personalized interaction with Professors, and the more flexible academic options vs larger universities. </p>

<p>There’s practically no place for a mediocre/slacking student to hide if he/she decides or happens to flake out on an assignment/course by skipping classes*, failing to complete assignments/readings on time, failing to pay attention/falling asleep in class, and/or turning in half-baked assignments or trying to “wing-it” when called on by a Prof to discuss the week’s/session’s assigned readings and he/she hasn’t bothered to finish reading/read them at all. </p>

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<li>When my roommate had missed a few morning classes in a row, the Prof. asked me to tell the roommate to see him in his office about the unexcused absences. If those absences had continued, the instructor would not have hesitated to pay him a personal visit in our room…especially when the dorm was less than a block from the building where the classroom/his office was located.</li>
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<p>I dont understand how you can logically say that there are less scheduling conflcits at LACs than at Unis.</p>

<p>Let’s take Bill, a Spanish major at Chicago, and Jay, a Spanish major at Middlebury.
The quality education at both is extremely intensive. Both have great professors and a really inspired student body.
I’m going to ignore Bill’s access to clubs and sports and the big city because, obviously, you can sometimes access that at some LACs (although sports/clubs aren’t as accessible/vast as at Unis).</p>

<p>Bill wants to take Advanced Hispanic Studies, Spanish Art in the 20th century, and a sociology course, Discrimination in the 21st century. Each of these courses is offered twice each term. </p>

<p>Jay wants to take the same courses. Except each course is only offered once per year. So Jay could probably take the same courses, but his would require more planning, and realistically qite a few conflicts could come up with scheduling.</p>

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<p>Try this: There are 15 Jay but 200 Bills who share the same interest. Which class do you think will have a “FULL” adorning the registration software?</p>

<p>And, I believe this will become abundantly clear to you when you will go through the process in registering for college classes in a couple of years.</p>

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<p>bzva74,</p>

<p>I’d think the closest LAC counterpart to UChicago if you want to account for the insanely intense rigor and workload and the extreme grinding seriousness that I heard about from its alums would be Reed or Swarthmore. </p>

<p>Also, UChicago has a blend of LAC(i.e. Dedicated academic advisors) and university which makes it such a unique and odd case that IMHO…it is not a good proxy for a typical elite university.</p>

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<p>You can get LAC-esque qualities at most top Unis.</p>

<p>Here is where the LAC argument falls apart. What they complain about only exists at huge state flagships. But most top unis have inherited the benefits of big universities (clubs, sports, size, research, variety of programs) with the benefits of LACs (attention from professors, close knit community). We see this with schools such as Rice, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, UChicago, Georgetown, Emory etc.</p>

<p>And as for the argument that LACs are better for scheduling because there are less kids, that argument is bullocks. There are more teachers to account for that size. Plus, if something fills up at a uni, you can take it the next semester. At an LAC, you may have to wait longer or, if it conflicts with a required class, you may be prohibited from taking it altogether.</p>

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<p>^^</p>

<p>And like monydad, you’re leaving out the fact that universities also have these issues…and often in my high school classmates’ experiences…the unis are far less flexible or willing to find an amenable solution than LACs. </p>

<p>As a graduate of an LAC, my classmates and I have had no issues scheduling courses unavailable during a given semester/year as private reading courses which could be scheduled at practically any time convenient for the Prof/student…and much more flexible/personalized for a given student. In our experiences, the idea that there are serious course conflicts which can shut one out of desired courses…especially advanced ones is completely alien to us as that was never an issue. It was one factor which caused many high school classmates attending most elite universities…including Ivies to be jealous of those of us attending LACs. </p>

<p>In fact, some universities like Berkeley and UCLA have such a serious problem with scheduling conflicts and lack of critical advanced required courses that their respective admissions staff had asked prospective students to plan to graduate in 5-6 years. A reason why several high school classmates turned down admission to such unis for LACs.</p>

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<p>What kind of LACs? I would reject UCLA and UCB for davidson, Pomona, or Williams, perhaps. But not Kenyon, Bard, Occidental. At that point it turns into a “quality of students” argument. And in that argument, LACs will never win. You are either stupid or delusional if you think that kids at the #30 LAC in the US are as smart as the #30 University in the US. Other than the top 10 LACs, Unis have a huge monopoly over admissions (for a variety of reasons that we have gone over+cost)</p>

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<p>A great contribution from someone who has personal and secondhand experience with both LACs and universities.</p>

<p>What is intelligence anyways? This was never a contest of intelligence, or a contest at all for that matter. Xiggi, cobrat, and I have stated our personal views from personal experience while also pointing out the flaws in both sides. Are such comments really necessary?</p>

<p>Reed alumni are now professors at many major universities including, but not limited to, Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Stanford, Vanderbilt, UChicago (which, as cobrat stated, is most often compared to Reed or Swarthmore than any other university), USC, Caltech, MIT, Rice, UCB, UCSD, and McGill (just for the Canadians out there). Steve Jobs, Peter Norton (founder of Norton Utilities), James Russell (creator of the compact disc), Larry Sanger (co-founder of Wikipedia), and Christopher Langan, described as the “America’s smartest man” with an IQ of ~200 all attended a LAC.</p>

<p>But this is irrelevant because again I ask: what is intelligence anyways? Even with the advances mankind has made since it first came into existence, we are unable to answer this question. Please don’t make such unnecessary and asinine remarks.</p>

<p>Also, just FYI: the #30 LACs in the US (a tie) are Bryn Mawr and Bucknell; the #30 university in the US is UNC, Chapel Hill. US News & World Report rated both Bryn Mawr and Bucknell seven points higher than UNC, Chapel Hill. I personally don’t believe in college rankings very much at all, but just a little food for thought.</p>

<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberal-arts-rankings/page+2[/url]”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberal-arts-rankings/page+2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings/page+2[/url]”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/national-universities-rankings/page+2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>You realize that the ranking isnt out of 100? It’s in comparison with the #1 school. So You could say that UNC is 70% of Harvard, while Bucknell is 77% of WIlliams. All this does is show the disparity between the top unis. Not because there is inequality, but because the top unis are SO FREAKIN DOMINANT.</p>

<p>And how exactly do LAC alumni teaching at unis or some celebrities going to unis prove anything? Uni grads teach at LACs and celebrities have gone to Universities. </p>

<p>You were just grasping at straws with that last post.</p>

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<p>The point was that LACs have not only graduated many dominate figureheads in a multitude of fields, but also some of the top professors in the country. Do you really believe that they—especially the ones who teach at major universities—are against the philosophies shared by LACs alike? Do you really believe these people—some of the top researchers and teachers in their field—would agree with your opinion of universities being definitively superior to LACs? Of course not! One is not inherently better than the other. They are different and both categories have their pros and cons that attract certain types of people. We have proven that it is not as black and white as you seem to believe it is.</p>

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<p>Disclaimer: While I try to acknowledge the benefits of a larger university, I attend an LAC and I adore it for the exact reasons that I chose it (tiny classes, small campus, feeling like I know everyone, walking to my professor’s house for end-of-semester dinner).</p>

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To give a point of comparison: here are the class sizes of my first-semester courses and pre-registered second-semester courses:</p>

<p>8 (no-prereq hum, but mostly upperclassmen)
8 (intermediate FL)
8 (intermediate FL)
11 (intermediate FL)
12 (intro English)
12 (upper-level/intermediate ling)
12 (selective writing workshop)
26 (intermediate CS)
112 (intro Psych, with breakout sessions led by a prof)</p>

<p>My school doesn’t have GE requirements, just distribution, and I’m taking a mix of intro- and intermediate-level courses as a freshman who came in with 5 AP credits (5 courses). I don’t think I could have taken classes this small at my state flagship, even through honors where courses are usually 20-25 students. Or at an Ivy, if you want comparable rigor, since I did NOT enter with a gazillion AP credits and I AM interested in breadth with as much depth as possible, which means taking intro courses in several departments.</p>

<p>Now for the flip side… some students will thrive in the ever-bustling, active atmosphere of a university. LAC students are always busy, too, but that doesn’t translate to the campus as strongly because there are many fewer students. Research opportunities in the sciences are often more abundant, almost always more immediately exciting. You will also definitely get more course offerings and major possibilities, which may be important to you if you seek an obscure major or want to specialize in an obscure area (e.g. 15th-century history of science and technology).</p>

<p>Incidentally, I wanted an obscure major (linguistics) and ended up at one of three LACs in the entire freakin’ country–believe me, I searched very hard–that supports a full linguistics major on-campus. In retrospect, I probably should have compromised a bit on size, but I wasn’t as set on this major during high school as I am now.</p>

<p>Wrt foreign language, I happen to have several friends taking Chinese (both heritage and non-heritage students). My state flagship and my college use the exact same textbook, but the state U covers first-year Chinese in 3 semesters rather than 2.</p>

<p>I had a scheduling conflict with Chinese and French; next semester I’m auditing a different Chinese class and getting credit via independent study. And it’s not the end of the world, since I’ve run out of room in my schedule as it is because there are SO many courses that I want to take. This is a product of me more than my LAC; I can’t imagine running out of courses in my major because that would mean sacrificing courses in other subjects.</p>

<p>I agree with monydad that on the balance, big universities offer “more”–more courses, majors, and clubs; more TAs, students, and bureaucracy. More can be good or bad. It’s nice to have multiple sections of a course, or graduate program offerings; but for me, it’s better to have classes half the size, and I willingly give up the opportunity for “more” because I prefer “less” (students, primarily). My LAC is a perfect social AND academic fit, which has been absolutely amazing after a specialized middle school and differently-specialized high school where I sacrificed social fit for academic fit.</p>

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<p>I will be the guinea pig as I will have one at a top 20 LAC and one at a top 20 university next fall :-)</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl: Very impressive, would you mind saying which LAC/university?</p>

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<p>Keilexandra, you bring up a solid point on how LACs can be better. LACs are better for kids who want what an LAC can offer. For example, I don’t want a small campus, the feeling that I know everyone, and for christs sake there’s no way you could force me to go to a professor’s house for end-of-semester dinner. It’s entirely subjective, but to a moderate person, I think a good, private university can offer everything that an LAC offers, except the small size. </p>

<p>And about LAC professors teaching at Unis, perhaps they prefer LACs. But it doesn’t mean anything. If an LAC alumnus prefers LACs, he would be teaching at an LAC.</p>