<p>If Wisconsin had reciprocity with Illinois, Wisconsin would be MUCH more selective. Apparently they have tried, but Illinois is one of those universities that doesn’t cooperate with other states. For many people in Illinois, UW would easily a #1 choice, but only the really rich kids can afford it. Maybe UW should just drop its OOS tuition to 11,000, 4k above our in state tuition. I personally think it would be a great idea since we are typically a “peer” of east coast students applying to Michigan.</p>
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<p>I imagine that’s precisely why Illinois won’t play ball on tuition reciprocity. For many Illinois kids, especially those in and around Chicago, Madison would be a lot more attractive than Champaign-Urbana. But the boom in applications to Wisconsin wouldn’t be offset by a similar boom in applications to UIUC. UW would become a lot more selective, UIUC a lot less so. It would push in the direction of a clearer pecking order than presently exists, with UW on top;right now I’d say the two schools are pretty evenly matched. Bad deal for UIUC. I wouldn’t go for it, either.</p>
<p>Yes, Wisconsin could drop its OOS tuition, but I don’t think it could sustain the revenue loss. You said in an earlier post Wisconsin has a cap on non-resident (non-WI and non-MN) enrollment at 25%. If so, they’re already at that cap. Cut OOS tuition by $10K per capita for that 25% of the student body and you set up an intense competition for a fixed number of cut-rate OOS seats while losing millions in tuition revenue—by my calculation about a $73 million revenue loss. I don’t think UW has the revenue elsewhere in its budget to make up that shortfall. Heck, that’s almost half the tuition revenue Wisconsin currently take in from Wisconsin and Minnesota residents.</p>
<p>Yeah, Illinois said it was to “preserve their institution for their own residents,” but obviously it had more to do with the fact a tuition reciprocity would overwhelmingly benefit Wisconsin and probably even hurt Illinois. You would never have Wisconsin kids excited at going to a school a few hours south of Chicago. </p>
<p>Which is why I think its such a great idea to drop the OOS tuition to around the Minnesota level. I believe UIUC is already one of the priciest in-state universities in the Big 10, so if UW dropped their tuition down to 15 or 14k, with what they already have in prestige, they would immediately begin turning lots of heads in Illinois and all throughout the US, especially the east coasters applying to Michigan/PSU/etc. If they would then move the OOS cap to around 40% or so, the revenue loss probably wouldn’t be so great, you’d immediately become more a lot more selective and world-class, and so on. I suppose at some point you really have to ask the question how important having a highly ranked undergraduate program is, though… especially if its costing you tens of millions in revenue.</p>
<p>Is UMN able to bear the loss in OOS revenue, or like Madison’s economy, were they just starting from a small base, and thus just about anything would actually increase revenue?</p>
<p>^ as I explained in another thread, I think dropping OOS tuition could asctually produce a net revenue gain for Minnesota. The schools is now about 26% OOS but about 60% of that is from reciprocity states, so only about 10% pay OOS tuition. They recognize the in-state applicant pool will decline over the next decade, but they’re committed to continuing to take roughly 1 in 10 Minnesota HS grads. But that would let the in-state student body decline to about 65% of the total—about the same level as Michigan. Dropping OOS tuition by about $7K means they’ll get less tuition revenue from the 10% of the student body that currently pays non-resident tuition. But it should also mean a huge boost in the OOS applicant pool who will be competing with reciprocity students for the OOS slots. Over time the weaker reciprocity students will be displaced by stronger OOS and international applicants from farther afield, possibly enough to push non-reciprocity OOS up to 25% to 30% of the student body, each paying $4K/year more than in-state and reciprocity students for a net revenue gain over the status quo. Brilliant! Revenue neutral or a slight revenue gain, more applicants, higher selectivity, a better qualified student body—it’s a winner all around. </p>
<p>But because Wisconsin’s student body is structured differently, they can’t replicate it on the same terms. For Wisconsin, dropping OOS tuition would inevitably mean a huge revenue loss for reasons I explained in an earlier post.</p>
<p>Well, in both the short and long term, I don’t think it is terribly realistic that this idea is going to completely boost Minnesota’s selectivity (or at least actual attending student body). I’m not trying to be defensive here, either. </p>
<p>Usually schools who take the “lets admit out of state students!” route end up admitting out of state students with credentials lower than their instate counterparts. This isn’t always true, but it often is, especially if a school is just starting to do it in an attempt to attract more out of state students and rise up the rankings. UW-Madison is like this, in fact; out-of-state residents have about an average 3.58 GPA to an instate 3.82, I believe (although east coast grading is different in many respects and many of these people come from challenging private schools). This is partly because for many of these very qualified students looking out of state, cost is not a huge concern, and Wisconsin was just their “safety school” (usually after Michigan, Florida, etc). Thus, Wisconsin has a problem getting that “top level” out of state talent in large numbers because they are getting accepted by the “better” schools at the tops their list (often privates willing to give large financial incentives). Even though UW often offers a comparatively lower tuition, many of them will gladly take on the debt to pay the extra 10k to go to Michigan. With that said, it would be interesting to see how the out of state students already attending Minnesota stack up against the instaters, but I am too lazy to find this info, and I suck at finding these things.</p>
<p>Anyway, if UMN tripled its out of state student body in a small number of years like you said, unless they suddenly obtained the decades-long-earned rep of Michigan, they would probably need to be admitting out of state students with some comparatively pretty low scores, especially when it comes to the kids who are actually choosing to attend the following fall. Furthermore, as amazing as The Cities may be as a magnet to sell the university to out of state kids, I don’t think it would be a huge part of the equation or consideration considering that a very large number of these students are coming from cities like Boston, New York, LA, Seattle, or the Bay Area. Most of the top privates (and publics) offer very very little in this department in comparison to Minnesota.</p>
<p>I imagine that if next year’s incoming freshman class had tripled its out of state population (unreasonable, obviously), many of these students would be getting in with GPA’s in the low 3’s and pushing high 2’s; a lowering in tuition will just not result in an increase in highly-qualified out of state attending students that can account for a full 200% increase in out of state population (as well as a boost in the credentials of the 10% already there). Perhaps after a decade or so this would change, though. I don’t really know.</p>
<p>With that said, I believe the HS-grads decline is even worse here in Wisconsin than it is in Minnesota, and I would like to see us more aggressively recruit out of state and international students. Especially the latter, as it would build up international networking (very important) as well as many other things that are becoming increasingly more important every year in this global world. Otherwise, what this topic was actually about before it got hijacked into another Minnesota/Wisconsin debate (how did that happen again?) will most certainly hold true for UW.</p>
<p>Actually I have been told that UW is getting much better OOS kids from the east than it did just a few years ago.The UW reputation is just really beginning to spread in many areas of the East outside some areas where it was always strong (Jewish neighborhoods). I also think it can compete on an equal footing for top science oriented students with UM. Where it lags is in business.</p>
<p>Where did you hear that? I believe it, since it seems as if “the word has been spreading” lately, but I’m interested as I have never heard that. If that is the truth, we should probably up our OOS admissions a tiny bit.</p>
<p>And correct, business does seem to lagging a bit, even though it is pretty highly ranked. Research/medicine/sciences/engineering/etc are getting stronger, but business doesn’t seem to be anything that impressive. Part of the problem is probably the lack of a real business presence downtown. The city is working hard at trying to establish this, especially along the E. Rail Corridor stretching east a mile from the Capitol especially, but so far track record has been exceedingly poor (the height restriction has much to do with this, which is why it was recently modified). Epic Systems and several other major employers have all looked downtown and chosen to move to the countryside, mainly due to city’s unwillingness to cooperate or bend (which is probably another problem).</p>
<p>Luckily, the School of Business did just recently receive an 85 million dollar donation to keep its name the “Wisconsin School of Business”, though, so hopefully that will help the program along with the fancy new digs. None of this money can go to construction so it will go towards hiring and retaining the best faculty, as well as giving out financial aid and performing research (whatever business research is). Sadly, most of these people will probably go to MN or IL at this point, but hey! its changing.</p>
<p>From adcoms who work the east coast. Gets calls all the time from GCs complaining about rejecting kids who would have been in a few years ago from NY, CT, etc.</p>
<p>I don’t think Uminn or UI business is much better than UW looking at placement. Umich is. Agree about all they are doing but so is everyone else. You have to run to keep your place. Everybody has fancy new buildings.</p>
<p>Yeah, but it would be nice if they spent the money on a new humanities/etc building once in an… ever.</p>
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<p>I don’t see why this would be true. Look, if you go by the US News rankings, there are at least 35 states where the state flagship is not as strong as Minnesota. If Minnesota can offer a better education at a competitive price, then it’s hard to see why it couldn’t pick off a significant fraction of the top quartile of students currently going to those schools—i.e., students whose stats currently match or exceed the medians at Minnesota. They won’t get all of them, of course, but they don’t need to. I’m sure there are plenty of well-qualified Illinoisans who aren’t going to pay for a fancy private school but would see the Twin Cities as an attractive alternative to 4 years in exile in Champaign-Urbana. It seems like half the college grads from Iowa end up in the Twin Cities anyway; they can get a decent education at a good price at Iowa or Iowa State, but if they can get an equal or better education at a comparable price in the Twin Cities, why not? Most states in the Northeast have, frankly, not very strong public universities; but the top of their classes tend to be fairly strong, generally above the medians at Minnesota. Some of those kids won’t get into a Michigan, and even if they did the high COA is going to keep most of them away. But Minnesota at a price roughly comparable to their state U is an attractive bargain, a “best value” in higher education and arguably a better deal than their own state U. So why not? Many of Minnesota’s programs, including business and engineering, are already ranked among the top 25 in the nation, public or private. At $14,600 or so in OOS tuition, these are some of the greatest bargains in all of American higher education.</p>
<p>I don’t say Minnesota will become the new Michigan overnight. But I do think it’s got a rather brilliant strategy going here. I do think this strategy will boost selectivity (and early reports indicate this year’s applications are up about 15%). I also think it will result in a stronger entering class, not a weaker one as you suggest. We’ll see; the proof is in the pudding and it’s too early to tell so far. But I think your suggestion that the OOS admit pool will be weaker than the current pool dominated by in-state and reciprocity students is profoundly counterintuitive. I also think, by the way, that as Minnesota becomes more selective, it will also become more attractive to the high end of the home-grown college applicant pool, a large fraction of whom currently end up out-of-state, either at Wisconsin or at fancy privates. Last figures I saw said only 65% of Minnesota kids stay in-state for college, and my bet is the 35% who leave are heavily skewed toward the high end. Just recapturing a larger percentage of the high-end home-growns would do wonders for Minnesota’s stats and potentially propel it to or past Wisconsin’s level.</p>
<p>I never said it would result in a weaker entering class for next year. For one, Minnesota is intent on playing the US News Rankings game, and if any University truly and obsessively is (like Minnesota), its not that hard to ensure that you will have more selective entering classes coming in.</p>
<p>Furthermore, what I actually said was if they admitted 30% of the student body from out of state right off the bat in next years group of freshman, then the attending class would be quite a bit weaker. If a University that isn’t already A-level selective and doesn’t have a whole lot of rep decides it wants to attract three times as many out of state students, it just isn’t going to suddenly attract the cream of the crop, even if it lowers tuition to a level of explicit beggary. </p>
<p>And I don’t see Minnesota “passing Wisconsin” unless it plays some quirks in the US News Rankings. Getting near Wisconsin in rankings and “quality,” has probably been inevitable for some time, but passing is unlikely. Wisconsin is still becoming more selective, especially in its pool of out of state residents. If Minnesota does get up to Wisconsin’s level soon, it will find that its selectivity will probably top out around there. That is, it will have a very difficult time breaking into the next level for a number of reasons. And if Wisconsin does ever start to slip, all they need to do is drop out of state tuition and recruit more international students (which I imagine the admissions depart is considering due to the drop in HS grads). It would be so easy… I mean, tons of kids from all over the nation already know that Madison is a great place to combine a high-quality education with a great college experience.</p>
<p>^ The State of Wisconsin is facing a budget deficit equal to 20% of its general fund budget for FY 2010. That portends a huge whack out of aid to higher education. I don’t see Wisconsin cutting its OOS tuition anytime soon. The only question, I think, is how much they’ll be forced to raise it to replace reductions in legislative appropriations.</p>
<p>bclintonk. The question also be will if OOS students would be willing to pay a lot more money for a Wisconsin education instead of just opting for a public school in their own states. It is possible, Michigan already has proven it can charge top dollar for OOS students and still attract them.</p>
<p>RJ, I’m not sure what you mean by that; I think your English is a bit off.</p>
<p>But anyway, clintock, that is part of the reason I was wondering why Minnesota dropped OOS tuition so low— they can’t really afford to either if its not going to increase revenue right away. I believe the Minnesota deficit is one of the worst in the nation per capita, projected to be between 6 and 7 billion soon, and with Best Buy, Target, 3M and other major employers showing no signs of picking up, some think this number may get as high as $10B. In this economy, I can’t imagine that will be changing any time all that soon. In fact, I believe your Governor just asked the U to shed $150 million from its’ budget. Any benefits of “increasing revenue” from out of state students will take some time unless you admit a TON in this or next years freshman class (probably about 40-50%).</p>
<p>I reread my statement TheDesertFox. It makes perfectly good sense to me. If Wisconsin raised their tuition levels dramatically for OOS students, would they still attract them to Madison as much as they do now?</p>
<p>^ The difference is that where Minnesota has room to grow—and Wisconsin not so much— is in the percentage of OOS students in the overall student body. Wisconsin’s already taking about as many OOS students as Wisconsin taxpayers and the Wisconsin legislature are likely to tolerate. Minnesota’s still got room to grow there. By dropping OOS tuition Minnesota can attract a lot more OOS applicants—as already appears to be happening judging by their overall 15% increase in apps this year—potentially offsetting any decrease in revenue per student by taking in a larger number of OOS students, each paying more than the in-state or reciprocity student she displaces. for reasons I explained, it can work financially, though it may take a few years to get there. Wisconsin’s already at of very close to its cap on OOS students, so dropping OOS tuition would only mean a net loss of tuition revenue for Wisconsin.</p>
<p>In fact, I think both in-state and OOS tuition are likely to go up next year at Minnesota—and everywhere else, including Wisconsin. The states just don’t have the money; they’ll be cutting aid to higher ed, not expanding it. Minnesota’s a little ahead of the game because the state is already dealing with its FY 2010 budget. The State of Minnesota’s projected 15% budget shortfall is bad—but not as bad as Wisconsin’s project 20% shortfall, which hasn’t yet been translated into a specific dollar figure or percentage cut in aid to the University of Wisconsin. But the point is, Minnesota is committed to keeping its OOS tuition in lockstep at a level $4K above in-state, which will mean that even with a tuition hike it will still be a huge bargain to many OOS applicants. Minnesota saw a market opportunity and seized it. I don’t think Wisconsin’s in a position to counter by cutting its own OOS tuition, unless it wants to see OOS students balloon to 50% of the student body, which I just don’t think is in the cards.</p>