University of Alabama (National Merit) vs T-20 School

College Search & Selection
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My eldest daughter turned down Denison for Bama. She is now a consultant for a big 4 firm in Atlanta. I asked her about your question, to summarize her answer:

  • if you want strategy consulting at Bain, BCG, McKinsey then Ivy will create an easier pathway

  • if want Wall Sweet IB /Quant etc - then ditto

  • both are possible from Bama, but much harder, more hustle, etc

  • general finance, tech/program/ops consulting, and happy to flex on location and open to southern cities - then lots of opps

  • there are plenty of smart and ambitious students who want to do well at Bama. Youā€™ll hang out with like minded people.

  • Honors and other specialist programs like Blount mean smaller classes with smart people

  • clubs fairly easy to join, student gov can be hard, TONS of opportunities to be involved

  • good internship help via business school

  • Greek life seems overwhelming first semester freshmen year, then everyone calms down and quite of people who join also drop out (my D did)

  • its nice to be around more chill people: D had in state friends with Ivy level profiles who only applied to Alabama! so different from Dā€™s high school!

My D applied to Princeton which was the only top tier school coming in as affordable for us. I asked would she have attended if accepted. Her answer, even given her time at Bama which she enjoyed, was an unequivocal ā€˜yesā€™.

Neither of us has very few bad things to say about Bama (most of those are either large state school generic or local state policies really) - but Ivy League is different gravy as they say.

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22

This is a misleading generalization. Alabama is a public university. T20 universities are generally private universities with a quarter, or less, of the student body that Alabama has. That being said, Alabama has over 7000 students on its campus that scored over 30+ on the ACT and had an unweighted 3.8+ GPA. That cohort matches up well with just about any private university (but not all). Again, though, you are comparing apples and oranges. Alabama offers a different college experience than a T20. You have top-level D1 sports. You will not get that at most T20 schools (at least, not on Alabamaā€™s level). Alabama has top engineering teams (Astrobotics has won seven of the last eight national championships, which T20 universities could and do compete in).

As for ā€œself proclaim to get smart students to attendā€, outside of the T20, what school doesnā€™t do that? Itā€™s called scholarships. Almost every university offers some sort of merit aid. Some of it is defined, some of it is not. Why are you judging one university differently because of the way it offers scholarships?

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23

Actually we are agreeing on this point. Just as both apples and oranges are fruits both UA and Ivies are institutions of higher learning but they are very different and donā€™t necessarily appeal to the same students.

For whatever reason it is politically ok to highlight that UA has a far superior athletic program, better weather and cost advantages to Ivies. However it seems less palatable for UA proponents to acknowledge the reality that elite schools populations draw and consist of more academically distinguished and qualified students. This is in spite of all sorts of verifiable proof.

And 25,000 that scored below while at Cornell a 32 placed you in the lower quartile.

No one is suggesting there arenā€™t smart and academically driven kids and or (a small population) of kids that did or could have gotten into ivies. They are not however the norm where at ivies they are the virtual entirety of the student population.

I suggested OP see which suits them and didnā€™t make a value judgement. You canā€™t however just cherry pick the distinctions that favor your personal preferences or experiences and claim impartiality.

Stating Bama has better football is as fact based as saying the average student at an Ivy is more accomplished academically than the avg UA kid in spite of any anecdotal or wishful evidence to the contrary.

OP once again good luck to your student considering their needs, goals and preferences and consider the comments of @CollegeMamb0 who seems to have no ax to grind.

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24

Alabamaā€™s intense focus on sports is also a turn off for many academic superstars.

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25

Although we know a couple of kids from our daughters class who were History and English majors now enrolled in law school at Harvard and another IVY cannot remember which one. I do think the cream rises to the top and if you take advantage of the opportunities in your particular undergrad program, and, academically hit it out of the park post grad options are open.

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The issue was not getting into law school, it was the job right after college IF she is looking to be at certain companies and locations.

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I can see that. It hasnā€™t been explicitly said at my house but my kids are not fans of the athletes only dinning halls, dorms, etc.

This is the case for both my non-athlete and my athlete, who very much want to meet and live amongst a variety of other students.

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28

I understand your worries; I have many of the same. I canā€™t give you outcomes for a few years, and itā€™s not close to an Ivy, but my kid turned down schools like Pitt and FSU this week for Bama. He also aims for law school.

During his visit, he was told - donā€™t know if itā€™s true - that there are currently 14 Bama grads at Harvard Law.

And, fwiw, UAā€™s law school is ranked 25th - way higher than, say, Pittā€™s (78th), FSUā€™s (47th) or CWRU, where my kid was WLā€™d (also 78th).

Heā€™ll be in the Blount honors program. He spent hours with those kids and profs during his visit. He left glowing ā€“ he talked about his conversations on philosophical subjects, the humor, the nerdy/quirky vibe. At the Pitt visit, notsomuch. He spent significant time with kids and one prof also. The school had the city energy he hungered for, but he was underwhelmed with his visit to a dept. head, and he didnā€™t really connect with anyone he met. Obviously these are highly subjective impressions and likely would be completely different on another day.

Will the rigor be the same as Pitt? I honestly have no doubt that it will, based on the faculty bios, curriculum, outcomes and students heā€™s talked with. What about in his gen. ed. classes? Maybe not, although there are honors sections that probably will tip things closer.

But he will have the ability to double-major/double-minor, study abroad for much less, no student loans - and I know you said money wasnā€™t a concern, but for us and him, it sure is nice not to have to think about it and not already be in the hole before law school.

Heā€™s gotten a lot of ā€œWhat???ā€ comments from his classmates. Peer pressure is an awful thing. But he is completely sure he made the right decision.

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29

Since the OP mentioned potentially going to law school, my sister is a partner at one of the top law firms in the country. For what itā€™s worth, she says that almost everyone they interview went to a T20 undergraduate school.

Most of their associates also graduated from T14 law schools but they will take a top student at a lower ranked law school - but they have to be at the top of their class.

30

I am probably very impacted by the NYC environment, but I think if 350k is no hardship, T10-T20 should probably be the answer, unless the full ride comes from a similarly competitive school.

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31

Well my daughter and her friends doing aerospace are all at the top companies for the industry. She also did an internship at NASA, which in and of itself is super competitive. Her letters of rec and Alabamaā€™s relationship with NASA definitely helped.
Goldman Sachs does recruit at Alabama. When my daughter was touring schools the honors program at Alabama had a joint relationship with Goldman Sachs not sure if that is still the case? Two of her friends from undergrad took jobs as analysts with Goldman.
But yes, in the area of finance and investment banking there is definitely a bias towards IVY and Top business programs. My H is an investment bankerā€¦

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32

As a lawyer, who owns his own firm and has decades of experience, outside of BigLaw, law is fairly regional. If you want the BigLaw lifestyle, then you likely need to go to a T14 school. If you donā€™t, well, your options are more open. T14 law schools donā€™t necessarily open doors at small boutique law firms in regional areas. Those firms are looking for someone who is local and went to the local law school. Why? Training a lawyer takes time, effort, and money. In a smaller environment, it hurts more when younger lawyers leave. Thus, you donā€™t treat them like Fungible Billing Units (like BigLaw does). Local lawyers also tend to have better ties to the community which generates more clients, the lifeblood for any firm. So, as to the private practice of law, it depends. As to the practice of law, there is: in house, private, government, and academia. We each have jokes about the other. Each has a different lifestyle, career arc, and mentality.

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33

I dont diagree. Im just sharing one viewpoint. A lot of people who want to work at top IB/Consulting firms and have interest in law school, also want to work in Big Law.

We are a family of lawyers (myself, my wife, my sister and my brother in law). We run the range of not practicing, in house counsel, partner at top law firm, retired partner at law firm.

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I worked at two big law firms and undergrad doesnā€™t matter one iota. Attending a T14 law school (or top regional school for that city) is all that matters. Law schools look at undergrad grades and LSATs. Like medical school applicants, going to a college where one will be in the top of class matters most.

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Since law school is not part of my world AT ALL, why is it referred to as T14? What happened to #15? 14 seems like a very arbitrary number.

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36

Georgetown wanted to play, thatā€™s why.

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37

This is a great answer and great insight @Peruna1998

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This thought never crossed any one of us in the family ā€“ that some school has D1 sports :-). People have different needs.

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39

ā€œAnd 25,000 that scored below while at [Cornell]ā€(Cornell University - College Confidential Forums) a 32 placed you in the lower quartile.
No one is suggesting there arenā€™t smart and academically driven kids and or (a small population) of kids that did or could have gotten into ivies. They are not however the norm where at ivies they are the virtual entirety of the student population.ā€œ
ā€”-

I completely agree. The concentration of the highly intelligent/gifted kids is the difference, not the absolute number. If the OPs kid enjoys and thrives when surrounded by almost everyone being academic superstars , then they should pick the ivy, regardless of their career path, and they definitely should if they want high-level banking/law.

Many highly intelligent kids need to be surrounded by a campus of mostly similar- level peers to thrive and grow to their highest potential. Many others do not care or might do better where they are the top5% of kids. But this fit difference is huge and is very important.

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40

Do law firms hiring new law school graduates have significant preferences for these new law school graduatesā€™ undergraduate colleges? I.e. if two applicants who did similarly well from the same law school attended undergraduate colleges significantly different in prestige, how much difference does it make?