University of Chicago vs Stanford (SLE)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>It's 3:12 AM, and I think I'm losing my mind. As of right now, I have a little less than four days to decide on a college. My rhetorical skills are all but exhausted at this point, so I'm going to be fairly concise. (haha)</p>

<p>I'm Andrew (hi!), a 17y/o white male from a competitive Silicon Valley high school. I'm not really sure what I want to do in life, but I'm thinking about majoring in economics, philosophy, or some other "fuzzy" discipline (okay, econ has a lot of math, but I’m still counting it as “fuzzy”). I'll probably go to grad school. What I want more than anything in a school is a thriving intellectual community. You know, philosophical discussions with my roommate, political discourse at the dinner table, and a priority list that goes something like (academic)conversation>food>sleep>life. Okay, that last bit is somewhat of a lie, I love to run, fence, and just generally dick around with friends, but I don't think anything really compares to losing myself inside a philosophical debate.</p>

<p>So, future salary, prestige, strength of program, weather, cost, nice professors, and all of that aside, where will I find more of what I'm looking for?</p>

<p>My initial reaction was, obviously, Chicago. It has an incredible reputation as one of the most intellectual campuses all of higher education. However, when I went to visit, I didn't see too much of the "life of the mind" that everyone talks about. Perhaps it was because I stayed in one of the dorms that is more "social" than the others (Shoreline), but nobody seemed to be talking about anything intellectual, and most of my fellow prospective freshmen were choosing between state schools and Chicago. At Stanford, I found people a bit more engaged, and “ProFros” were choosing between Stanford and Harvard/Yale/Princeton. Now, I know this is rude, insensitive, judgmental, naive, and I'll probably get a few replies that hammer me for this (in advance: I'm really sorry), but, all else equal, shouldn't more qualified students make for better academic discussion?</p>

<p>I know, Chicago kids are supposed much more intellectual and "nerdy" (for me, this is actually a good thing), but consider one last thing about Stanford: the Structured Liberal Education program. SLE (as you may or may not know) is a residential/academic offering which involves a series of lectures/discussions actually held in the dorm and a LARGE reading requirement that is uniform for students throughout the program. This unification and foundation in the liberal arts would provide (I hope) what I'm looking for (this article seems to agree [also, it's a great read]: <a href="http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2001/janfeb/departments/studentvoice.html)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2001/janfeb/departments/studentvoice.html)&lt;/a>. I guess, in comparison, U Chicago has a very strong core, but I don’t think that equates to actually sharing the same class. On the other hand, I'm worried that the other 3 years of my Stanford undergrad would be a bit dull: Stanford kids get a stereotype of being too pre-professional and not very interested in liberal arts/humanities.</p>

<p>Sorry for breaking my promise about a short post, but I'd really appreciate if you'd offer any sort of wisdom. Where do you think I would be happiest?</p>

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<p>OK, I'm not a Stanford fan. But I went to Chicago, and felt the same way that you did about not really seeing that much "life of the mind" and serious discussion there. I was there for four years, too, and lived in two dorms. The core was OK, not thrilling. The humanities and soc were all right. The phy sci and bio were nothing- just take the courses (which may be part of your major anyway). The various parts of the core don't really hang together that well. I went to a mediocre east coast public school, but we, in our own way, had as much life of the mind among the group of top students. So, I was somewhat disappointed. I had never heard of SLE at Stanford before, sounds interesting. I agree with you that it may well be better than the core. It might be good for you to experience something outside of California, but on the other hand, Stanford will be better for you in the long run if you wish to live out there. I would vote for Stanford. You seem to know what you are doing, and I do feel that the core at Chicago would disappoint you. (I didn't mind the core, but did not really go there for the core.)</p>

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<p>My S is having an altogether different experience at Chicago. He loves the Core, and he finds it all to be continually stimulating and exciting. He meets interesting people all the time. For example, he just met another first year who spent last summer translating a play from the original Greek and is putting on a production of it this spring. He is in constant discussions about topics ranging from mathematical proofs to physics to Euripides to you name it. He often calls to excitedly tell me about something learned, an insight had, or a discussion in which he engaged. He has spent time not only conversing with his profs, but with several invited speakers to the many colloquia offered on campus. For him at least, the life of the mind at Chicago is his daily existence. He lives and in very social dorm, and loves it and the social life at Chicago as well.</p>

<p>Good luck wherever you decide to go, sounds like you do well no matter wher you decide to attend.</p>

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<p>OneMom,
sorry that your experience was not stellar. The Chicago alums among the academic types that my husband works with had a very different experience indeed, and were uniformly thrilled to hear that our son is attending.</p>

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<p>Obviously, both great schools. One issue you haven't raised: How do you feel about the social aspects of SLE? I know there is some sense among other Stanford students that it is social suicide. It's the difference between everyone taking a core curriculum and one self-selecting group of students, who also live together separately from the other first years.</p>

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<p>Sac, then i guess that makes UChicago and SLE comparable :-)</p>

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<p>Humm, I'm sorry to hear about your experience... when I visited in February it was totally the opposite - note, however, that several people have commented that the school tried to showcase itself as something that its not, because there is a push (by some) to get rid of Chicago's nerdy aspect, a push which is receiving a lot of scrutiny, with reason - so I think that you shouldn't base everything on your visit alone. </p>

<p>One of my bosses at work told me a story about when he visited Upenn before applying to college, and stated that he and the friend that had gone with him had 180 degree experiences, and came away with entirely opposite opinions of the school, so be careful on how you weigh this.</p>

<p>I must say that when I visited I saw what I expected: Bright kids learning for the heck of it, and there was plenty of intellectual discourse around. Sure, people would joke around, but there was always someone doing some hw, and more importantly, always someone beside them helping (something which, at a more professional, and more cut-throat campus like Stanford will be less commonplace). </p>

<p>Since you are into econ, I thought I should cite this. I sat in on Steve Levitt's(surely u must've heard of him: "Freakonomics") "Economics of Crime" class, and it was amazing. However, unlike the Harvard professors whom I had had last summer, he stayed after class and talked to all the students who wished to speak with him - mind you this man received the award for best economist under 40, is a major nobel contender (would increase the Chicago econ dept. nobel faculty number to 5 (or 6?), any speaking invitation for him will cost you 125k dollars, and he's written a NYT best seller which is in its 11th edition. So, not even being a student, I did the same, and talked to the man for 20 mins. He had cited some examples about Brazil, and so I mentioned I was Brazilian, and then we talked some about that.... the conclusion of the conversation? He said that I should come by when I returned as a student, and he could def. help me out with some research on my home country. </p>

<p>As you can see, the experiences will vary when you visit. Think of your own school.... aren't some days quite different than the others? or aren't some people's days quite different than another's? </p>

<p>Having said that, I give you my sincerest congratulations on being accepted to these truly awesome institutions, and you should indeed be thankful for facing a choice which several thousand kids all over the world would give anything for... lastly, trust your heart. You know the schools by now probably better than any ranking, any parent, or any (biased) alum does... do what your heart tells you, because its the only guarantee that you'll enjoy ur four years, since you won't be there because someone told you to (USNWR, mom, dad, me), but because you wanted to go there yourself.</p>

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<p>I don't think that Stanford's as competitive as you made it out to be, surely Chicago is too.
Especially depending on the major...</p>

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<p>felipecocco: I totally agree with you and i am thrilled by the prospect of meeting those professional yet helpful professors...</p>

<p>Suciu: remember, Stanford might have a better brand name in a way and most students will choose Stanford over chicago but taking the road less taken by others might well be the best decision of your life...i know it doesn't help much but it's just something i thought of...=)</p>

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<p>That was cliche, but if you like warm weather...
:-P</p>

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<p>Felipe, every time I hear you talk about sitting in on that class I get unnaturally excited. And well said. Were you at the 20-21, I didn't see you? I just hope I can get into his class as a non-econ major...</p>

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<p>OneMom-- this is exactly what I'm afraid of: a lackluster experience. But what made you dislike the core? Personally, I think I'd be very interested in it, however, I'd like to know what turned you off from it. Additionally, if you don't mind my asking, what do you hold against Stanford? (I don't mind if it's personal bias, almost every answer I will hear is-- but that's what I'm looking for)</p>

<p>Idad-- What is your son majoring in and which dorm is he staying in? Thanks.</p>

<p>Ohio_Mom-- Hehe, this is very true. My neighbor, a Chicago Alum was absolutely extatic when he heard I got into Chicago, but, then again, shouldn't Stanford alums love thier college too?</p>

<p>Sac-- I honestly don't care. Despite having a "nerdy" mind in high school, I find my athleticism pretty much negates any stereotype that people try to place on me. Also, nerds at Stanford? That almost seems like something to be desired... after all, I'm not trying to get in on the frat scene, I'm looking for the most intellectual enviornment. If there will be people who frown on that, let them be.</p>

<p>Felipe-- Good lord. I am SO jealous. I'm absolutely enthralled with behavioral econ (levvit, Gary Becker, etc) so this is a huge selling point for Chicago. But, on the "good professor" side, both schools are supposed to be pretty equal.</p>

<p>Darren-- I think there's a bit of wisdom in your statement, thanks, it does help.</p>

<p>Everyone tends to agree that UChic econ is a hair better than stanfords, but where does philosophy stand?</p>

<p>Also, the distilled question in my mind right now is sort of encapsulated by this pro/con list: </p>

<p>Stanford:
Pro-- amazing academic climate in SLE for 1 year
Con-- perhaps not as much intellectualism for the remaing three</p>

<p>Chic:
Pro-- 4 years of solid intellectualism
Con-- probably no one year will be as intense (discussion-wise) as SLE (simply because SLE forces everyone to read the same books and, as a result, be able to discuss the same topics easily)</p>

<p>Any thoughts? (I know, I know, I should go with what feels right, but I'm not feeling any one more than the other... I need you guys to sway me)</p>

<p>Whoa, here's a crazy thought, can I do a year at Stanford and then transfer to UChic? Hm.</p>

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<p>I did not dislike the core. It just did not seem to live up to the hype. Humanities- great instructors, good course, did live up to the hype. Social studies (took the Marx/Freud/Maslow one)- the readings were fine, instructors not so fine. Had one grad student- he was probably the best- interesting, caring. Next quarter, a very famous full professor. She seemed to not want to be there, would not give you the time of day, was condescending, was anxious to not reschedule when classes were cancelled, although a number of students really wanted every minute that they could have with her. Third quarter- a nice, friendly, older professor, but he was too laid back-didn't really get into the material. So the social studies sequence was a disaster, although the readings were good. Phy Sci- I was taking honors chem anyway. It was just honors chem, same as anywhere. Biology- mediocre. I was not premed or bio major, so did not try to get into the most serious sequence. I took a sequence that involved microbiology, genetics and environmental science. Microbiology- OK, no different from a high school science class. Genetics- professor brilliant but lectures boring. However, he helped me with references for a paper, and that was really interesting. Environmental- had a fun field trip, friendly class, but again, nothing special.To fulfill the second tier, I then went a nonstandard route to the concern of my advisor. I took a lot of language classes that I really wanted- had the background to get into some higher French classes. I lived in Snell,and heard a lot about Western Civ, art, music, Far Eastern Civ, and American History but nothing that convinced me to take those courses. Fellow students said that if I didn't take Western Civ, I would not have experienced Chicago. Maybe they were right, but I don't think so. I had a completely amazing experience in a similar high school class, so that counts.</p>

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<p>I didn't have a bad experience at Chicago. I had excessive expectations, and would have felt let down by any top school. Very low income, first generation, didn't know any college graduates except for the teachers who had all gone to a few local schools. It just didn't work that well for me on a personal level. It was OK, though.</p>

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<p>Suciu, in terms of the great professors comment, I absolutely agree. However, one thing which may be the selling point about Chicago is the accessibility of the professors (Its student:faculty ratio is 4:1, and I'm pretty sure only the very tiny (comparably) CalTech beats it with 3:1). Therefore, I think that although both may have great professors, I'd venture a guess and say that at Chicago you might have a closer contact with them, but since I haven't attended both, I really don't know. Also, I don't know how Stanford's is like, but I do know that many major research universities somewhat force their graduate and PhD students to teach at the undergrad level - not Chicago! So if you do end up having a TA in a class or in a section, he will very likely be doing that because he enjoys the subject very much, which I think is also a plus... I dunno, just another factor to consider..... I just thought of this 'cause I have a few friends at Harvard college right now and they bitterly complain about the fact that their thrown TAs left and right... so I think you ought to consider the strength of the faculty AND their accessibility.</p>

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<p>Now do you know if the student:faculty ration included Graduate students? Because it seems that it doesn't. I bet the ratio looks a lot more like most schools once you factor in the grad students.</p>

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<p>well, I used the USNWR ratio... so I'm sure its just the college... but I do remember seeing that Harvard's was like double... so I'm pretty sure that Chicago actually has such a comparably large faculty.... and when I visited, classes were really small, and people agreed that they usually were...</p>

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<p>Yeah, I talked to kids who said the core classes atleast were tiny.</p>

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<p>Many classes, especially 3rd and 4th year but possibly earlier, are mixed grad and under grad students, and are still small.</p>