<p>My D is accepted to both univ. of michigan and tulane (20K scholarship.) She applied to boston college but was deferred. It's a reach.She thinks she could enjoy u of m but her main concern is the classroom sizes are too large. She currently goes to a private school where there is a lot of faculty one on one, which is important to her. She is premed. Is there a way to make the learning environment workable. She is not interested in the residential college or in the honors program. With regard to faculty relations, is tulane a better fit??</p>
<p>who gives about classroom experience? The end goal of going to college is to get the best job possible, and all else being equal, it is more likely that you get a better job coming out of Michigan than from Tulane.
If anyone wants to pull the “school only matters for your first job”, you probably should look into the fact that your first job has a lot to do with what you get for your next job, and so on.</p>
<p>don’t listen to what bearcats has to say, he is definitely in the minority when it comes to his opinions on cc. </p>
<p>Umich has large class sizes (150-500) for intro classes, but it is very easy to get in touch with faculty by visiting office hours. It would definitely be easier with smaller classes sizes, but umich as a whole is better college experience imo.</p>
<p>my friend goes to tulane and I have heard horror stories. It is a very big party atmosphere-people coming to classes drunk etc etc etc. Of course michigan has problems such as this too, but for it seems to me more of people at UofM are the “academic” type. Yes there are big parties and such going on for sporting events, but look at the college rankings for most drinking. I believe Tulane was #2 for more hard liquor…</p>
<p>Also, if you are not stupid rich your kid may not enjoy the atmosphere. My friend is a spoiled rich kid. Nice person in general, but does have that “elite” attitude that rubs many people the wrong way. Tulane has a very large number of u.s citizens who attend after attending school out of the country…aka rich kids who want to party and go there because it is a good school in New Orleans</p>
<p>If you think your child can avoid letting the party scene overwhelm her life then I think either school would be a find choice. But if she is not a fan of sloppy drunk idiots thursday through sunday…she may prefer michigan. Although honestly she will encounter them at either place.</p>
<p>If she really wants to go premed then I would go to the school that is cheapest. period. 100k+ in debt is a lot, even for a doctor.</p>
<p>p.s. I would say UofM trumps Tulane in the academic areas. It is a big bonus to have the hospital so near so she can get hands on experience etc</p>
<p>“don’t listen to what bearcats has to say, he is definitely in the minority when it comes to his opinions on cc.”</p>
<p>Majority is not always right.
Source: Last presidential election… where’s unemployment at again?</p>
<p>The idea that everyone has the exact same intentions in going to college is dumb. The OP’s daughter wants to go to med school. Surely when she’s looking for a job the school that matters is the med school, not the undergrad school, right? So why not pick the one where she’ll learn best? It’ll help her on the MCATs. That sounds like the right criterion to consider to me.</p>
<p>Thanks for the feedback so far. Some good points. The party scene at tulane sounds like it could be a concern. Financially( with tulane scholarship) is not a big problem. I think both are rated pretty well for premed. I’m wondering is tulane known for their faculty being
engaging and receptive. Could having tutors at U of M help get that one on one. Or is that not practical.</p>
<p>I am a Tulane alum and have a D there now (freshman, Honors Program just to set some of the parameters). So yes I am biased, but I have frequently recommended schools other than Tulane to people, including recommending UM over Tulane to some students that are clearly looking for the UM type experience. Some of the comments on here are just wrong. The one about having a lot of US citizens that went to school out of the country is just bizarre.</p>
<p>Tulane certainly has a party reputation, but the reality is that it is no better or worse that most other schools. The thing about kids showing up for class drunk as if that were an everyday occurance is absurd. Like all schools, Tulane has its very serious students and its less serious students, and the extreme cases of the latter don’t last long. Tulane has made a concerted effort to deal more stringently with excessive drinking. But Michigan, Penn State, Duke, etc. all have these same issues. Perhaps it gets lost in the crowd more at a huge school like UM.</p>
<p>With regard to faculty being engaged and accessable, that is widely considered one of Tulane’s strongest points. On that issue and most of the others mentioned, I can only tell you my daughter is extremely pleased, and she had offers to go to much higher ranked schools like WUSTL and Chicago (full tuition scholarship to Tulane, to answer the question you would have asked. That, plus she loved the campus and New Orleans and felt very comfortable during her overnights, although she did at WUSTL also).</p>
<p>A visit with an overnight would be critical I think, if it can be arranged. While a couple of days and a night can’t really give one the complete picture, it is better than nothing. Oh, and by the way, the Tulane Med School is only 6 miles away via a university shuttle or a gorgeous streetcar ride. Undergrads can absolutely get involved in research, sometimes as early as freshman year.</p>
<p>“don’t listen to what bearcats has to say, he is definitely in the minority when it comes to his opinions on cc.”</p>
<ol>
<li> Invalid logic; focus on the statement itself, not the person making the statement.</li>
<li> The majority opinion, by definition, does not have to apply to everybody. Having many differing views will help the OP make an informed decision.</li>
<li> If he is in the minority, then I’m included in that minority, and that minority tends to contain the smartest people; therefore, in accordance with your style of logic, our opinions should not be discounted.</li>
</ol>
<p>If you are interested in small class sizes, I don’t know why you wouldn’t be interested in the honors program. Yes, there is a way to make the learning environment more workable–participate in the honors program (or at least sign up for honors classes), sign up for sections with few people in them, sit in the front, go to office hours… (I’m assuming that by this point, I’m telling you what you already know).</p>
<p>Thanks fallenchemist, I didn’t know that tulane had the strong faculty card. that is good to know. Pancakes I’m afraid the honors classes might be too tough. Any suggestions on the best one to try out freshman year?</p>
<p>Detroitgirl, one other thing your daughter might want to check out, if she has recreational artistic/literary interests at all, is the Lloyd Hall Scholars program. It is a Michigan Living Community at Lloyd Hall designed for students with interest in creative arts. Lots of kids in the community are not necessarily STUDYING creative arts…just interest in. Those accepted (mini portfolio and essay, as I recall) participate in clubs and mandatory meetings, as well as take two classes in Lloyd Hall (small, socratic style classes with interesting themes. Eg. Freshman writing requirement can be met by courses like "We’re a Happy Family (dysfunctional fam lit) or a creative writing class, etc.</p>
<p>Granted, that exp. is limited to one course a term, but apparently it makes the UMich experience a lot “smaller.” My s.'s school graduated 84 kids last year and he’s been very comfortable with his U of M experience despite our reservations that he’d do better at a smaller school. But his major (a BFA program) is in fact very small, so that certainly plays a part. Good luck in your search. Has your daughter sat in on classes at both yet? That will help her know. Fit is usually intuitive.</p>
<p>…And bearcats, you are so young and clever, yet may find a day in your distant future where you cringe upon reading some of your archived posts…But I’ll take the bait and answer your rhetorical question:
“Lots of folks care about the classroom experience, because they’ve determined it is the journey, not the destination, that makes life a joyous undertaking.”
You know, sometimes things can just be AUTHENTIC. Not everything has to have an “angle.”
If you, like people I know, found out you had six months to live, would you then want to enjoy the classroom experience? Or would you suffer through the wrong fit (for you) to impress some faceless future recruiter you could, in theory, never meet?
It is a fine balance!</p>
<p>(Which isn’t to say you were necessarily wrong in your assessment re: undergrad rep.)</p>
<p>Thanks kmccrindle, my daughter is not very artistic or creative per se. What year is your son at U of M? I read on another thread something about MRC ( michigan research community) which may be something she could get into. I don’t know anything about it and would love any input anyone may have.</p>
<p>Sure, but I really don’t recommend going into any class with a negative attitude. It really won’t help your performance…</p>
<p>Intro honors seminars are usually pretty easy. Most are small (mine was 10 people). For a large amount of these classes, grades are based just on class participation and discussion and you learn a surprising amount with no pressure of tests. However, there are also several very difficult honors seminars (you can find the easier ones using the course guide and ratemyprofessors). I chose a topic that interested me and ended up with an amazing teacher who also had very high standards (he went to Yale and is one of the top scholars in his field, period), and I barely managed to get an A in his class… I wouldn’t take back my experience, because it was amazing, but I don’t think this is what you were looking for. Anyways, he was incredibly available during office hours (I basically planned my entire paper one-on-one with him during office hours), and, as I said, most other seminars are easier.</p>
<p>From what I’ve heard, Psych 114 (honors version of intro to psychology, which is psych 111) is quite interesting and not too difficult.</p>
<p>You should also consider Greatbooks (Gtbooks 191 and 192). I took this course before Cameron (the old teacher) retired, but I don’t think that the quality of the course has changed significantly. It satisfies the first-year writing requirement and is a really good way to satisfy the english requirement for med school. The GSIs are all very available for help during office hours (the GSI will end up grading all of your work, not the main professor). The main professor’s office hours were also surprisingly empty (maybe most students were intimidated). Make sure you sign up for a ‘good’ GSI (use ratemyprofessors, ask around, and ask me if your daughter decides to come because one GSI doesn’t give below an A-, but I don’t know if she’ll be teaching then). Unfortunately, I did not have this GSI, but I’ve found that having harder teachers is better! Either way, you should have lots of individual attention during this course.</p>
<p>Physics 160 (honors calculus-based mechanics) is not that much more difficult than Physics 140 (calculus-based mechanics), both of which are significantly more difficult than the algebra-based physics series (Physics 125, 126…).</p>
<p>Physics 260 (honors calculus-based e&m) is much harder than 240 (calculus-based e&m), and these are each way harder than algebra-based e&m (to be honest, I don’t even know how you have algebra-based e&m but that’s beside the point).</p>
<p>Orgo will be big no matter what. I really recommend waiting for Dr. Nolta and starting orgo in the winter, continuing with orgo 2 in the spring if it’s possible. They do have study groups led by students that have recently taken the class (about 10 students each) that meet weekly, but I wasn’t the biggest fan of these, nor are they necessary for your success. The teachers I had were amazingly responsive by email (sometimes they responded within 10 minutes 
) and I didn’t have trouble getting their help outside of class. Nevertheless, you’d probably want to hire a tutor for this course and they are abundant. If you know where to look, you can get free tutoring from GSIs. By the way, make sure to sign up for the discussion sections (led by GSIs) that have the fewest people in them. I don’t think that honors orgo is way more difficult than regular orgo, but you do learn in detail about things (like NMR) that are barely touched upon in regular orgo. NMR is covered in more detail in the regular orgo lab courses (well, the second one, chem 216).</p>
<p>After orgo, the chem classes are much, much smaller and it is a lot easier to get individual attention (with the possible exception of introductory biochemistry).</p>
<p>I don’t have much experience with undergraduate biology, so don’t ask :P</p>
<p>in regards to my statement of u.s citizens coming from abroad being “bizarre” I have read somewhere that it is actually true. The person I know is actually an example of this, so maybe that is a biased view. Also, I don’t dispute the fact that all colleges will have drinking problems, but Ann Arbor is nowhere near the type of city New Orleans is.</p>
<p>Also, “1. Invalid logic; focus on the statement itself, not the person making the statement.
2. The majority opinion, by definition, does not have to apply to everybody. Having many differing views will help the OP make an informed decision.
3. If he is in the minority, then I’m included in that minority, and that minority tends to contain the smartest people; therefore, in accordance with your style of logic, our opinions should not be discounted.”</p>
<ol>
<li>The person made an ad hominem attack. It is not an “invalid” proposition, instead it is a logical fallacy, which is informal in nature…</li>
<li>You claim invalidity on her “logic” but you use it to defend your position that the smartest people are in the minority. That is inconsistent and leads to a few funny little scenarios if one were to play it out :)</li>
</ol>
<p>sorry to pick apart your post, I’m just a believer that no one should use jargon that they are unclear on. Although I am sure you get the general idea of validity(and your position itself is not dumb by any means) you shoot yourself in the food by calling it invalid logic…</p>
<p>Pancakes, Wow!! You are a wealth of information. My daughter would love the great books class you mentioned and the intro honor courses sound like what she is looking for, Great tips!! Sounds like you are premed as well. Did you find the students friendly. ? Was it easy to make friends.? In other words happy place to be??</p>
<p>RageRoolz - First, I assume you are talking to me about the invalid logic statements since you started your last post answering my statement about US citizens abroad. Just to be clear, I said nothing about your logic, that was pancakes. You should be clearer who you are talking to.</p>
<p>Second, I think you are confusing the statement that is very often made about Tulane, which is that they attract more students from over 500 miles away than any other school. The vast, vast majority of those are from US high schools, and I have never seen anything published about how many are from foreign high schools, much less US citizens in foreign high schools. If anything, it is probably the other way around with some international students that attended US prep schools and the like, although that is pure speculation on my part. I am sure there are nowhere near the number of students like that than there are at the HYPS schools, though.</p>
<p>As far as the drinking, the New Orleans argument is a red herring. In fact, there have been some studies that suggest the availability of other activities at urban schools lessens the drinking somewhat. There is strong evidence that universities in rural areas have a signigicantly higher problem in this regard. Not that it is a study, but there was a recent This American Life segment on NPR that profiled Penn State and the drinking there. So I have no idea how much or little of a problem it is at Michigan, but going by anecdotal evidence is very dangerous. At the least, I would guess that at Michigan it is out of sight a lot of the time due to the weather, while at Tulane people are outside a lot more, and that could significantly affect the perception of observers.</p>
<p>Detroitgrl - Just to keep Tulane on an even pace here (lol). I guess your D was not invited to the Honors Program at Tulane, since she got the 20K scholarship (congrats on that, btw!!). For better or worse, only the kids that got the $25K and a few of the ones that get the $22K are invited upon entering freshman year. However, there is a great books course at Tulane also that is part of the Honors Colloquium series. My D is in it, and it focuses on the great literature that pertains to western thought and civil society. Tons of reading and she just loves it. Only like 8 or 9 in the class (there are 3 sections). So if she earned her way into the program for sophomore year she could look at something like that, I think. Or she might be able to get special permission from the prof, although it is supposed to be for HP students only so they might not agree to that. However, honors sections for regular courses like chemistry, French, history, whatever are open to all students, and they are kept even smaller than regular classes and involve more discussion formats. Anyway, my point is that by getting a 3.6+ her freshman year and taking an honors section or two, she would qualify for the HP and these types of colloquium courses would become available to her. Just so you know.</p>
<p>All I can say is I am glad this battle of Tulane vs. Michigan is being played out this way and not on the football field, lol.</p>
<p>Rage, you might want to try reading more carefully:</p>
<p>You said:
“1. The person made an ad hominem attack. It is not an “invalid” proposition, instead it is a logical fallacy, which is informal in nature…”</p>
<p>I never said that the proposition was invalid. I said that he was not using a valid form of logic or a valid form of reasoning, which he was not. Here’s some wikipedia to keep you happy, particularly the part that says “The fallacy does not represent a valid form of reasoning.” [Ad</a> hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Ad hominem - Wikipedia”>Ad hominem - Wikipedia)
Oh yeah, you might also want to read the part where it states, explicitly, that ad hominem is not a logical fallacy (although there are fallacious instances), which you claim it to be (generally speaking).</p>
<p>You said:
3. You claim invalidity on her “logic” but you use it to defend your position that the smartest people are in the minority. That is inconsistent and leads to a few funny little scenarios if one were to play it out </p>
<p>Did you read the part where I said “therefore, in accordance with your style of logic…”? I don’t think you did. It was done intentionally on my part; in part because of slight similarity to reductio ad absurdum that I thought a few people might find funny, in part because it’s funny to use someone’s style of reasoning against them, and in part because it is my opinion that people tend to understand their style of reasoning very well. Honestly speaking, it is hard to pick up on subtle tones, sarcasm, and the like on the internet, but I’m pretty sure this was due to a lack of reading carefully.</p>
<p>So, you didn’t ‘pick apart’ my post, but thanks for trying. It keeps me on my toes. God forbid I ‘shoot myself in the food’ on an anonymous forum :P</p>