<p>Great, you speculative types are going to make me go look this crap up, aren't you?</p>
<p>Hang on (heads off to data, giving long-suffering sigh).</p>
<p>Okay. I don't have Religion because I have to find what it was cross-listed as.</p>
<p>In Fall 2004 (last year) Poli Sci 160 had 371 total enrolled for the Lecture. None of the discussion sections had more than 25 enrolled. One had 13, but most had 23 or 24. When the budget cuts were made (state hosed us) they talked about increasing sizes in sections in core classes, but that happened prior to Fall 2004, so I am not sure that Fall 2005 would be that different.</p>
<p>I'll post Religion when I get it.</p>
<p>Okay, for Religion 201 (Introduction to World Religions: Near Eastern) I've got this Fall's enrollment. There are 455 enrolled for Lecture. There is one discussion section with 30 students in it. The other 18 sections have no more than 25. The smallest section has 21.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michigan's largest auditorium seats only 350 students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed.......</p>
<p>Does that mean that the University of Michigan regularly enrolls classes for which it does not have the space, or does that mean that alexandre is misleading?</p>
<p><em>wanders off to the law quad to ponder</em></p>
<p>I guess this means I need to get into the space analysis database, too?</p>
<p>LOL. Hang on, that's really not my area. Initial guess from a colleague is that Michigan has three lecture halls that will, indeed, seat more than 350. We'll have to look this up for sure. </p>
<p>For once I'm actually useful here--I can hardly take the excitement.</p>
<p>Kb: Fyi, 14 * 30 = 420</p>
<p>LOL....you are right....that was a dumb. Perhaps I do belong here after all..........</p>
<p>I believe Auditorium 3 in the MLB seats around 450 students.</p>
<p>The point I was making KB is that you were trying to make it seem like lecture halls with 500+ students are common, as are sections with 30 students. Only a tiny fraction of freshman classes have over 200 students, and almost none of the sections have more than 25 students. I stand corrected about Michigan not having lecture halls with more than 350 seats. In an university with over 300 buildings, thousands of classrooms and tens of thousands of classes, there are three lecture halls that can indeed seat more than 350 students. In short, those aren't common whatsover. And from my experience, if a student wants attention from a professor and takes the initiative, he/she will get it.</p>
<p>Can we agree on one thing: after the first hundred people the size of a lecture doesnt matter. There is no effective difference between a class of 100 and a class of 200. And hoedown- good info</p>
<p>To bring all those digits into perspective, the intro to religion and political theory classes were among the best during my four years at Michigan. It all comes down to the prof and TA. You'll get smaller classes in your major later.</p>
<p>This dialog along with others on CC helped me in the college decision making process.</p>
<p>My concern was academic environment. I had little doubt about finding my way socially. The bottom line was a mid sized university aka Brandeis, Emory, Tufts, Rochester or a larger highly regarded larger institution aka Michigan or UVa.</p>
<p>There was no one answer since this process is so individualized when deciding between the medium sized research schools vs the larger institutions.</p>
<p>I applied to both types gaining acceptance to Michigan and a highly regarded ED mid-sized school.
Good luck to all.</p>
<p>Michigan is awesome and I dread getting accepted to a smaller school of Michigan's caliber and having to choose. I couldn't. But luckily, I probably won't get in anywhere as good and I'll be in Ann Arbor next fall.</p>
<p>Okay, so the lecture halls technically do not seat more than 370 or 420 or whatever. It sucks that people are constantly having to sit in aisles in lecture halls. </p>
<p>I didn't know chibear was in honors math here at Mich, and yes, that is a truly excellent program with extremely small classes and very good professors. It's also hard as hell and very few students can stay and finish the sequence. Therefore, small classes tend to happen not by effort on Michigan's part but just the sheer difficulty of the classes.</p>
<p>kb is in the unfortunate circumstance of taking classes that generally have very large enrollments. I've had the pleasure of taking a class with just 12 other students and I've had many classes in the middle and a few very large lecture classes. I've sat in on lectures at other elite schools (MIT, Cornell, Princeton) and yep, intro classes are large at most places. It's hard to get to know professors at most universities with good research reputations. Office hours are key. So don't let those factors be a guiding decision.</p>
<p>Just find whatever environment suits you best. Undergraduate education's prestige lies not in where you went usually (maybe HYPSMC help slightly, but I've seen students from those institutions with poor GPA's fare pretty badly in grad school admissions and job searches too) but how well you did in your undergrad. If you think a smaller environment will suit you better, by all means, attend Brandeis or Tufts. A 3.3 GPA from Michigan will look a lot worse than a 3.6-3.7 from Brandeis. </p>
<p>My main beef with Michigan does lie in that nebulous realm of "undergraduate focus." Intro classes tend to be absolutely dreadful here. It's only at higher levels that you start to get a sense of why this university has the reputation it does. I'm honestly jealous when I hear people say that their intro classes were some of the best classes they took in college. If you're pre-med or aiming for Ross, you have to navigate a minefield of weeder classes to get anywhere. That can make your first two years miserable. If you do come to Mich, be prepared. You will have to work much harder than your private school classmates. Programs that do try to provide some focus such as the MLC's are ridden with problems like poor advising (Honors and RC) and fewer opportunities than what they claim to give (WISE). I am lucky that my interests aligned with a program at Mich that happens to be one of the best in the country. Otherwise, I probably would have been far more frustrated than I am currently. </p>
<p>For you future or undecided Wolverines, best of luck in your decision.</p>
<p>MichWoman, do you realize that at schools like Columbia, Cornell, Harvard, Northwestern, Penn, Stanford and many other top universities, Freshman classes tend to have over 200 students and sophomore classes tend to have over 100 students? Once a class has over 50 students, you can not longer benefit from close interaction with professors, so whether a class has 250 Freshmen or 400 Freshmen doesn't really make a difference. The problem you are experiencing is widespread among top research universities. One should go to a LAC for that more personalized experience, but then, those students will not have the opportunity to let her rip Junior and Senior year! hehe</p>
<p>Yes, many top large research schools have the large intro courses. My parents attended a large highly regarded state u and they discuss the benefits of the entire experience and how they grew as individuals. On the other hand, foreign speaking TAs, red tape,limited access to profs and uneven advising were the downside. I would personally feel suffocated at a LAC; soooooooooo</p>
<p>For me, some mid - sized research universities offer the best of both worlds and also match my interests. Tufts, Rochester, WUSTL, etc..fit the bill for me. I chose Emory, however, if I were from Michigan, I would have probably accepted my offer to Ann Arbor. Perhaps I will retun to Ann Arbor for grad school.</p>
<p>It's a wonderful thing to be able to choose from such fine institutions.</p>
<p>That's what I said in my post, Alexandre. I speak of an issue in quality of teaching and approach in undergraduate intro courses, not class sizes.</p>
<p>I totally agree with you, Hannibal.</p>
<p>Although there appear to be "issues" at large public research institutions, it would be unfair to stereotype such schools. since it appears that Michigan is atypical in this regard.
Perhaps it is a combination of the large endowment, numerous highly ranked grad depts, top professional schools and well rounded social environment which attract thousands of applicants and many top profs. </p>
<p>Not many public universities could be as popular with students across the nation (and world) and charge OOS one of the highest tuition rates for a public university. Many people turn down their own state universities and pay 2-4x the tuition to attend Michigan. This says a great deal about the popularity and academic strength of U of Michigan.</p>
<p>I personally am more comfortable with a compromise of a mid -sized private research institution but many prefer the larger school after weighing the pros and cons. Just a matter of personal preference.</p>