<p>No doubt, Michigan is quite popular for OOS evidenced by # of applicants each year.</p>
<p>My dilemna;</p>
<p>The difference in OOS tution and private universities is not too much. I wonder if a private university with smaller courses, fewer TAs, greater undergrad focus, etc.... is worth the difference.</p>
<p>Michigan has great grad programs but does that translate into excellent undergrad education? Grad oriented schools focus on research and publications. Does a prof in a lecture hall of 400 spend much time with undergrads outside of the lecture? How much do you rely on TAs?</p>
<p>I am a bit confused about this since other universities that I am interested in appear to have a different focus on the undergrad while having strong grad programs (Wash U, U of Chicago, Rochester, Northwestern and Emory).</p>
<p>True these schools are smaller than Michigan which may make it unfair to compare.</p>
<p>Frankly, I've use to wonder about this myself. I mean, for the same price, you can get a different sort of academic experience that many people judge call "better." </p>
<p>But I've always chalked it up to some people wanting "The Michigan Experience" which you can't get at a more intimate place. You know, the whole package--respected undergrad academics but also big athletics, world class grad programs in just about everything, seeing the "M" everywhere you go around the world, great college town, etc. For some, that is worth the price and worth the downsides to going to a big place that seems relatively expensive. It's a great choice for some people; it's what they want and what they can't get at other places.</p>
<p>I am not so sure that the faculties and resources availlable to undergrads vary that much between Michigan and most of the schools you mention. Michigan does not have many classes with over 100 students and Chicago and Northwestern are not void of such large classes either. And faculty at all three of those schools is driven by research.</p>
<p>Hannibal, as a student here at Michigan, I can tell you it's well worth paying for Michigan over any of the schools you mentioned in your post. As hoedown said, it's about the whole experience (athletics, academics, community, etc.). Not to mention, I really don't think Michigan is any more grad-focused than any of the schools you mentioned. While here, I've never felt second to grad students, in fact, I almost feel the grad students aren't even here because I never really hear any mention of them. I'm taking 19 hours of courses this semester and only two of them are in a room of over 30 people. And I'm a freshman. This really doesn't feel like a big place to me at all. All my classes are within 10 minutes of walking distance, I'm close friends with all the people in my all, and I know just about everyone in all my classes. Not to mention that academically, Michigan is just as good as any of the schools you mentioned, just with that added "overall experience" of Michigan shirts everywhere you go, national coverage in athletics, and a recognized name in just about any field you can think of.</p>
<p>Its important to ask what department...I know chibears is in super-duper honors math...there aren't a lot of people insane enough to take that stuff anyways. </p>
<p>Wander over into the liberal arts...polisci, psych, soci...there's not the same type of individual attention that chibears describes. Well...there CAN be...you just have to go looking for it.</p>
<p>The title to this thread kinda made me laugh....the "University of Michigan value for OOS" doesn't exist imho.</p>
<p>But then again, many people think i don't have a soul...so take what i say with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>All of my classes are honors and one of them is a seminar. Everyone has small discussions as far as I know though. Math classes, no matter what level tend to have small lectures as well. I believe they have something on the order of 55 sections of calculus I going this semester. If you make the effort, you can have small classes if you want. I don't even really want small classes, the ones I like just happen to be small.</p>
<p>I guess I am looking for a hybrid such as a medium sized research university with more of an undergrad focus. Some of the schools that may fit intoi this category are Tufts, JHU and Emory.</p>
<p>JHU won't have a greater undergrad focus than Michigan. But you are right, some schools do. Here are a few:</p>
<p>Brandeis University
Brown University
Emory University
Georgetown University
Rice University
Tufts University
University of Notre Dame
Vanderbilt University
Wake Forest University
Washington University</p>
<p>I think this whole "undergrad focus" aspect is blown WAY out of proportion. I've never once felt like I wasn't "focused on" here at Michigan. I rarely see grad students or hear anything of them, therefore it's near impossible for me to feel second to them in the Michigan hierarchy. I really don't think this "undergrad focus" actually means anything in terms of quality of an education.</p>
<p><em>sigh</em>..for the 18th time chibears..that's b/c your at a level of honors math that a VERY SMALL percentage of the student body takes.</p>
<p>Take a real 500-person lecture where your professor has like 2 hours per week available and your GSI can never meet b/c they're busy writing thier own thesis. I'm not saying that there is no undergrad focus.....but it is quite small.</p>
<p>Kb, I'd like to see that 500 student lectures you mention since Michigan's largest auditorium seats only 350 students. I agree with Chibearsfan, you get as much individual attention at Michigan as you do at any research university.</p>
<p>Alexandre stop drinking the kool-aid man. Polsci 160, which I'm just getting done with has 14 30 person sections. 14X30 = 450. 160 is in the Lorch auditorium, and it holds WELL over 350 students. </p>
<p>Religion 201, which I'm also in, has upwards of 19 sections (I'm not sure exactly how many, but I'm sure its at least 19 b/c i'm in section 19). 19X30=570. 201 is held in lecture hall B of the MLB, which also holds WELL over 350 students. Not everybody goes to lecture every day I'll grant you...but lectures with upwards of 500 students DO exist, and they are more common than alexandre would have you believe.</p>
<p>I'm totally fine with not having that sort of professor attention and access. But for kids who need more direction, it could be a bad situation. And BELIEVE ME..there plenty of kids here on campus who need a lot more attention then they are getting.</p>
<p><em>smacks forehead</em>
Between classes and extra-curricular involvement, its not totally out of the realm of possibility that students are not able to go to the limited office hours that professors and GSI's have....must I connect all the dots!?</p>
<p>KB, it is you that's misleading students. Sections at Michigan do not automatically have 30 students, they max out at 30, based on time preferences. Some sections have fewer than 20 students. And the # of classes at Michigan exceeding 100 students is very limited, almost always to Freshman level classes. Schools like Cornell, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Northwestern and even Stanford have a similar # of large classes as Michigan. </p>
<p>And KB, contrary to your claim that only a small core of Michigan students are smart or academically engaging, I'd say the well over 50% of Michigan students are highly intellectual and very bright, which is far more than merely a "small core".</p>