I didnt know two students were going to be expelled over this. My view on the situation is, yes, there should be freedom of speech, even if it is despicable(and I say this as a Black person). However, with that freedom, comes responsibility. One must be prepared to deal with the fallout of your “right”. So if the university is allowed to expel students based on said student violating the student code, so be it. In this age of on demand video by way of cell phones, I am still amazed at the stupidity of some. I am also saddened that this group of young men, had a Black chef preparing meals for them for 10 years, and yet that song still existed.
My last note is that, this type of behavior continues the systemic racism that we sometimes have to endure. Some of these same young men will grow up to be officers, judges, managers, etc. The fact that they so gleefully sang the song, lets me know that we are considered less than. When you think someone is less than, even if it may be unconsciously, mistreatment can occur.
For those who are in favor of the kids getting expelled, I have this question: If your son or daughter is taped singing a song at a private gathering where the lyrics of the song say to “kill the cops like they do us” or “rape the b%$ch when she say no”, do you think they should be expelled? Those lyrics sure sound to me like they “create a hostile environment”. They are also similar to lyrics you hear every day sung around the country by people.
Falsely yelling fire is to stir up an issue (assuming the person isn’t hallucinating). Maybe they are singing Springsteen or Ed Sheeran song lyrics. Maybe singing a racist song, if also to stir up an issue, even if its not an immediate safety issue, isn’t that much different.
But this really is not a “private” event in every sense of the word in that its organized, even if not open to the public, by an organization with school sanctioned affiliation and probably some regulations.
Hate speech is protected by the Constitution. Shouting fire is not protected because it’s a call to immediate action that can result in physical harm. Run! ". Court interpret what is a call to IMMEDIATE action very narrowly. Shouting fire is really no different than pulling a fire alarm. The speech here is not of that nature. It’s disgusting and hateful and references a reprehensible violent act. But it cannot be reasonably interpreted as a call to immediate action for violence or chaos.
The bus driver may have been offended. But people don’t have a right to shut down speech that offends them, and obviously the bus driver’s feelings have nothing to do with the pretext for the expulsions, which appears to be “hostile atmosphere” for people trying to get an education.
Here’s a thought experiment for those of you who support the expulsions. Student A writes a letter and sends it to the school newspaper, and it is published. In the letter, A says that SAE should not admit black students, because, in his opinion, black people are genetically inferior and are morally stunted. Indeed, he says, OU would be a better place with no black people at all. He signs his name. Would you expel him? If not, why not?
“For those who are in favor of the kids getting expelled, I have this question: If your son or daughter is taped singing a song at a private gathering where the lyrics of the song say to “kill the cops like they do us” or “rape the b%$ch when she say no”, do you think they should be expelled? Those lyrics sure sound to me like they “create a hostile environment”. They are also similar to lyrics you hear every day sung around the country by people.”
I think there is a difference between a song written by an musical artist as a form of artistic expression and a song whose lyrics have been deliberately changed by non musical artists into something vile and degrading.
Interesting article at #367
The fact that OU is public does seem to complicate the issue.
In general I have no problem with schools expelling students for acting like idiots.
“For those who are in favor of the kids getting expelled, I have this question: If your son or daughter is taped singing a song at a private gathering where the lyrics of the song say to “kill the cops like they do us” or “rape the b%$ch when she say no”, do you think they should be expelled?”
I would disown any child of mine who engaged in such acts. I would consider my parenting totally failed. I believe my children understand that rape and murder are not jokes. I have worked hard for them to understand responsibility and the political effects of language (the pen is mightier than the sword).
On the other hand, I do tell them, as my mother told me, “Stay on the street with the muggers. Do not get in the car with the cops.”
I meant that if it was a private school, they could expel whoever for whatever and I’d just shrug.
On the face of it the OU students actually have a First Amendment case, but who will be their Atticus Finch?
“On the face of it the OU students actually have a First Amendment case, but who will be their Atticus Finch?”
I will be quite surprised if anyone brings suit. As a parent, if it were my kid in this situation, it would not be the hill I want to die on. In fact, if it was my kid, if the school didn’t expel him - I would have yanked him out of school so fast his head would spin. And yes, I know he is an adult and wouldn’t have to do what I asked but I would make it so he would realize it is in his best interest to do as I say. At the least, all funding (school & personal) would be cut off.
Thinking about this more, it is problematic from both the free speech perspective and because the expulsion was immediate with no hearing and, as we have discussed in other threads, no due process for the accused. Just because the guys were prominent in the singing on the video, does that mean they were the “leaders” and coerced the others to join in?
The issue may not have been the speech, but the blatant admission of discrimination by race in SAE. The song states that a black man would not be admitted to the frat. Clearly the frat should be removed from campus.
OTOH, the expulsion of these guys sends a powerful message that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated, which is s good thing. Yet the more I think about it, even as clear hate speech as this was, it may well be protected by free speech. And much as i hate to say it, protection of that right protects us all in the long run.
“I think there is a difference between a song written by an musical artist as a form of artistic expression and a song whose lyrics have been deliberately changed by non musical artists into something vile and degrading.”
That’s an AWFULLY fine line to draw. There are plenty of rap and hip hop songs that are absolutely misogynist and degrading, that I’m sure get sung / played on college campuses quite a lot. Including in the black fraternities.
Is singing something evidence that you either *believe or intend to act * on the words of that song?
I realize I’m dating myself here, but the songs “Cocaine” and “White Rabbit” advocate illegal drug usage. “I Don’t Like Mondays” and “Pumped Up Kicks” could be taken to advocate shooting up the campus. I don’t think it’s an expellable offense to sing them.
The other thing I have trouble with is that we’re only seeing a few seconds of video. For all we know, ten seconds after the video ended, one of the leaders stood up and said – ok, guys, enough’s enough, we’re not going to sing that song, told the ringleader to sit his *** down and shut the **** up, and intended to talk to him later about his inappropriateness. Of course, I’m just speculating. But my point is, we don’t REALLY have the full context, IMO.
If that were the standard there would be no First Amendment at all. Very few are expelled on First Amendment grounds for saying something innocuous (although there are exceptions like the kid who was just handing out copies of the Constitution).
This country needs an education on what the First Amendment means, including university presidents. A lawsuit would bring it that attention.
When my kids were in middle school a group of students were handing out religious texts on the public sidewalk, off school grounds to students as they were leaving school. I was shocked at how many parents said “That shouldn’t be allowed!”.