I think it is reasonable for a parent of the expelled students to be both shocked and ashamed at their behavior, while also pursuing a legal action preventing government officials from abusing their sons’ Constitutional rights. I see those as separate issues.
Another article discussing a case of expulsion in a similar situation. Overturned based on the First Amendment.
The previous cases did not get the massive amount of unwanted publicity that this one has. Even if they did sue, and did win, would these students want to return to, or feel welcome at U of O? I think they should be allowed to quietly withdraw and transfer somewhere else. Maybe a cc first, or maybe a small campus without greek life. JMO.
^ So, Tatin and Bay - would you bring suit if these were your kids?
Frankly, I think most of these parents are so ashamed and mortified that their kids were doing this that they won’t. More likely, they want the whole sordid affair to go away.
"I was shocked at how many parents said “That shouldn’t be allowed!”.
I’m not. Many people do not like religious proselytizing anywhere. Also, they have every right to say it shouldn’t be allowed even if it is constitutionally protected. Personally, I would be very upset if my kid had to walk through a group of students trying to foist religious texts on him - especially someone as young as that who might feel he has to take said religious text. And yeah, I know the kids have every right to be there. Wouldn’t stop me from complaining about it though or expressing my utter objections.
One of the expelled students stated in his apology that he has withdrawn from the university. Perhaps a deal has already been done to give him a transcript that doesn’t include an expulsion. That would be a smart move for the University to take, because they could spend a lot of money defending a losing case.
I am having a personal struggle with deciding whether the university’s actions are just or wise. Former Senator Boren does not have a reputation as a grand-stander, so I’ll wager that he sought thorough counsel from his lawyers to ensure that he and OU were on unassailable legal ground. But again these actions give me pause. Expelling the students? Boarding up the fraternity house? Yes, obviously once OU de-certified the frat no SAE member had the right to live there, but the symbolism of actually boarding up the house greatly disturbs me. Yes, these boys deserve ostracism for a while, but…
If they told him he was on unassailable legal ground, he needs some new lawyers. I think it’s more likely that they gave him the best available argument, and told that it might fly in court if they got the right judge. They may also have told him that he’d probably lose, but that would be many months away when the spotlight would be off, and maybe there would be a quiet settlement in the meantime.
I would probably bring the suit if I could afford it, for the benefit of my own interests as a US citizen , and not to vindicate my son’s actions.
Exactly. Moreover, the expulsion is a record for life. Suing the Univ to get it changed to some other word and then ‘settling’ confidentially is the standard practice.
Oh heck no, at least to the last part. The “cost” to the Uni in a future law suit is way less than all the great press that Boren & the Univ has been recieving for acting ‘decisively’.
I’m confused. How is the president of a university a government official? I have no problem with these students being suspended by the school but I would have a problem with it if the, say, Governer had demanded it.
Also, if I were the parent in this case I would yank my child out of the university myself.
I know I’m asking for it with this question, but how much punishment is appropriate for this transgression? These students have lost their fraternity and their place to live, have been publicly identified by name on the Internet, have issued an apology, and are most likely out of school for this semester at least. While what they did is really bad, it isn’t a crime. We don’t know if it’s part of a pattern for these individuals, and we don’t know anything about what else they’ve done in their lives. If you were the president of a private university (eliminating the First Amendment element) and this happened, would you immediately expel students who did this, without any hearing or discussion of whether that’s the appropriate punishment? I guess I might expel them, but not before they had a chance to at least argue why a lesser punishment should be considered.
"These students have lost their fraternity and their place to live, have been publicly identified by name on the Internet, have issued an apology, and are most likely out of school for this semester at least. While what they did is really bad, it isn’t a crime. We don’t know if it’s part of a pattern for these individuals, and we don’t know anything about what else they’ve done in their lives. "
This is where I am at, too. Sometimes stupid drunk freshmen say stupid things because they think it’s cool. This does not appear to be part of any pattern of harassment or hostile environment. One would have a point if the fraternity or its members were making a habit of hassling an African American student group or something of that nature, or was making public statements about how Afr Am shouldn’t be allowed at OU,
I think they’re all good questions, @Hunt. Especially in light of this perspective:
Were the expelled students freshmen? I didn’t find what year they are, but I think that would make a difference to me. If they are freshmen, I would be much less inclined to scapegoat them for the actions of the fraternity as a whole.
There is a difference between saying something stupid while drunk and proudly belting out how you’d rather kill classmates than have them in your fraternity.
“How is the president of a university a government official?”
He’s an employee of the state of Oklahoma.
IMHO, this action might well be unconstitutional, but it was probably the right call for the university and its stakeholders. This will likely turn out to be a smart political move, regardless of the settlement that may be necessary down the road. I don’t think anyone would complain if the students had done this as HS seniors and were not admitted to the university as a result. Their admission and enrollment changes their legal status, but it doesn’t change the needs and priorities of the university.
They are Freshmen. Also, Wacka Locka Flame being upset by the chant lyrics is really something.
I don’t like to dump too much on young folks who don’t have fully developed brains yet - I totally get why people are outraged, but I think this could have been much more effectively used as a teachable moment.
If they are freshmen, I would say that it’s 95% likely that the wrong people are being expelled.
“There is a difference between saying something stupid while drunk and proudly belting out how you’d rather kill classmates than have them in your fraternity.”
Hunt will articulate this better than I can, but there is also a difference between standing up seriously and saying, “Dear fellow members of SAE, I propose that if a black man comes forth for membership, we go find the nearest tree” and singing a thoughtless, offensive song. it doesn’t REALLY mean that the young man in question REALLY wants to hang blacks from trees – any more than any of the hip-hop singers REALLY mean that they intend to just **** anyone around them. It’s offensive, crass, cringeworthy, all of those things – I get it.
Suppose a bunch of SAEs, sitting in one guy’s room and shooting the breeze, tell racist jokes. They aren’t shouting them from bullhorns. Protected or not?
NO ONE here has ever said anything offensive about someone else or a group of someone elses - whether it’s religion or race or ethnicity - in private settings? I don’t buy it.