<p>Whitman has a top-notch reputation. I have yet to know of a student who chose Whitman and regretted their choice.</p>
<p>{quote] However, if proximity to home isn't a big issue, then unless you go to an in-state University and get in-state tuition (or have one of the aforementioned compelling reasons), I don't see the difference in Wisconsin and UW, for example. You'd pay out-of-state for both (roughly the same cost), so it would just come down to "feel" and what particular program your son would like to study.
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<p>Proximity to home and money are not issues. What I'm trying to get at, mostly, is whether it's a state school that's worth paying OOS for. </p>
<p>I'd pay OOS for my kids to go to Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, UVA, UNC for example, and not think twice about the value I think I'd get for the money. I'd most likely pay for them to go OOS for Indiana or Iowa. I'd feel less good about paying OOS for Mizzou, for example, and I doubt I'd pay OOS for Arizona State. I'm just trying to gauge where Washington fits. </p>
<p>The comparison to Wisconsin helps a lot; from an IL perspective, it's a school worth paying OOS for (for those of us who can pay for OOS, of course).</p>
<p>Whitman is the Williams of the Northwest (and shares many characteristics). In fact, when I tell folks I went to Williams, most folks hear "Whitman", and I don't disabuse them of the idea, as it has an excellent rep. And 300 days of sun a year!</p>
<p>I'm surprised you think Michigan and Wisconsin are worth $60k or morer than UIUC. $60k could buy a lot of education in addition to the four years at UIUC. </p>
<p>(But then I don't have the money in either case. If I did, I'd look for a private where there was better advising, mentoring, and internships. That's what we did when my younger one was admitted to UW.)</p>
<p>Pizza-</p>
<p>I guess it all depends on what your son would like to study and how that program at UW compares to schools in Illinois. If you're willing to pay OOS for Wisconsin, then I think that you should also consider UW worth it. </p>
<p>In general, without knowing what your son would like to study, I'd say that Berkeley is a full tier above UW. Michigan, UNC, and UVA are are somewhere between Berkeley and UW, probably a little closer to Berkeley. Wisconsin and UIUC are close to UW, while Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, and ASU are all a full tier below UW. Now, if your son wants to study medicine, for example, this generic ranking would definitely change. So it would be helpful to know what interests him, what kind of setting he likes, etc.</p>
<p>You mention in your original post that your son is interested in the PNW, but I should warn you that Whitman is not in the PNW as you might envision it. Most people not from the area usually have an impression of the PNW being Seattle, the greater Puget Sound area, Portland...scenic with mountains, etc. But Whitman is in the far SE corner of Washington in Walla Walla. It's a flat, agricultural area a good drive away from a major city (with all due respect to Walla Walla). Not to take anything away from Whitman, but I just thought I'd let you know that it's not at all in an area similar to Seattle and doesn't fit the vision that most people have of the PNW. If he wants that PNW feel and is open to a LAC, then you should also look into Reed. It's in Portland, which would give him more of that traditional PNW feel than Whitman would, and it's arguably a better school, although it's close and some might prefer Whitman. My family is from Spokane (2 hours from Whitman) and my younger sister has pretty strong ties to Whitman. Had she not gotten into Amherst, she was going to have to choose between Reed and Whitman, and likely would've chosen Reed. </p>
<p>I agree with mini. If money is no object, I'd suggest looking at smaller private schools (possibly some LACs). For undergrad, I feel that you have a better chance at getting a good education at a private/LAC than at a large state university. Smaller classes, fewer TAs, strong personal interaction with professors (research opportunities and great for recs for grad school), bigger endowment per student, etc.</p>
<p>Thank you. Right now his interests are (in no particular order) creative writing, history / poli sci and potentially filmmaking. The PNW is more of a concept than a reality for him. UIUC is a fine school, but it's just not appealing when everyone around here goes there. He's a somewhat off the beaten track kind of kid and he will really groove on doing something that not everyone else does, if that makes sense.</p>
<p>Not sure if he will have the academics to get into Reed, but it would be on the exploration list.</p>
<p>Thanks again for everyone's help - much appreciated.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl -- As a fellow Illinoisan (is that right?), I am interested in your above comment about which OOS schools are worth it. North Carolina not only is a wonderful school but has very reasonable OOS tuition. Michigan? More than most private schools. How exactly is that worth it? Told my kids to do graduate work at Michigan one day if they wanted to -- can't justify over 40,000 to do it.<br>
I understand the appeal of Wisconsin, but is Madison really worth the extra money when UIUC is just as good?
Iowa can be a great deal because they give merit money. Indiana is not that highly ranked (except for Kelley and other specific programs, I guess) but due to popularity is starting to raise their OOS a lot. Why would that be worth it?
It is a shame that Urbana-Champaign is no Ann Arbor, Madison, or Bloomington and I know a lot of kids feel it is an extension of high school because of all the suburbanites who end up there, but it is such a high quality school that very few OOS tuitions seemed worth it to me. After all, a big state school is still a big state school as far as big classes, relatively poor advising, social scene, etc. Very much the same experience at any of them.</p>
<p>Well...I live in Pullman, WA, home of Washington State University, and I can definitely confirm that the general sentiment is that UW is much better, as much as our in-state rivalry would pressure us to believe otherwise. It's true that WSU is more for those rejected from UW, and it's also for those who want to escape from the Seattle area.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that any colleges east of the Cascades will have a much different climate than what you would expect (drier, etc), so don't think it'll just be another Seattle.</p>
<p>Personally, if I don't get into the Ivy-tier I'm hoping for, I will go to UW due to how cheap it will be in-state as well as its prominence in certain programs I'm interested in (bioengineering, for example). The medical school is definitely phenomenal, and if your son is interested in that, you should know that UW Med will recruit much more from the university itself.</p>
<p>The only problem I have with UW is the fact that as a large school, you are just a number there. But there are a lot of opportunities there that would make it well worth it, and you should carefully consider it; if UW were more selective, it's US News ranking would definitely be much higher.</p>
<p>I think Udub aligns more like UMinn than Wisconsin. Both are in larger cities, have great medical programs and some other good areas but also have something of a commuter school aspect with mostly instate students. Wisco has a far more OOS and national type student body and very little commuter feel with most students who don't live in dorms living right near campus in the student housing off campus. The campus is as alive on weekends as during the week. Udub seems pretty empty on weekends by comparison and lacks a social nexus like the Uwis union and State Street.</p>
<p>Placement wise Udub is gold in Seattle but does not travel so well. Wisconsin is Midwest (Chicago, Minny, Cinci etc) but also has large alumni and placement nodes on the east and west coasts.</p>
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The PNW is more of a concept to him than reality...
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<p>I can relate to that. I'd been hankering to visit OR and WA for sometime and finally arranged a four-college visit with S2 over spring break. He is a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy, woven belt, checkered slip-ons and a duct-tape wallet to complete the ensemble. Likes the rain and won't bother with an umbrella. I thought Portland and environs would click big time. But no. He was underwhelmed to say the least and the two colleges we visited, Lewis and Clark and Reed, were lovely but considerably too small. Way smaller than his h.s. and both dropped off the list for consideration.</p>
<p>In WA, we toured U Puget Sound in Tacoma. Bigger, but still too small and rather suburban, surrounded on all four sides by cute residential neighborhoods; not the vibe he's looking for. (If you visit, be sure to go to the Museum of Glass in downtown Tacoma; we both enjoyed the live demonstration of glass-blowing artists creating a giant new exhibit.) Friendly place though, serious attitude toward the academics and its gotten more popular as a choice among the CA families I know. </p>
<p>We did a self tour of UW since we couldn't make the official tour times work for us. S liked the city vibe and the campus has some gorgeous views. From my point of view, though, it's a better choice for grad than UG and I doubt I would see it as a better choice costwise and academically than one of the top three or four UCs. </p>
<p>But I can also relate to the temptation to consider top publics other than UCs even though we have a sweet deal here in CA. Many of the private colleges are too small and don't have the programs or atmosphere that appeals. The in-state publics can be too close to home, or too familiar, or too intense, or feel like too much of an extension of h.s. if too many kids you know are attending. Or they have impacted programs that make it hard to get into the major you want. </p>
<p>We are planning late summer visits to Michigan, Wisconsin and possibly Indiana and Colorado. A friend of mine's daughter is very happy at U Delaware, despite the OOS tuition. She fell in love with the look and feel of the campus and it had the program in hotel management she wanted so the parents are paying for it. As usual, YMMV in making these decisions. </p>
<p>And it's not PNW, but I'm wondering if Occidental College in the Eagle Rock neighborhood of L.A. would be a possibility for your son. Occidental</a> College :: Life in L.A.</p>
<p>I did not encourage either of my kids to go to UW, although it would have been considerably less expensive and they would probably have qualified for the honors college. Just wasn't a good fit for them.</p>
<p>But 9 of my son's close friends went there, all of them planning to major in engineering. Every single one of them ended up majoring in something else, washed out by one or another of the screening courses (differential equations was a bear). For a while my son dated a very nice young woman who was majoring in neuroscience--there were 48 places in the program, very competitive. So even if you go to UW with a plan--you may not be able to make it happen.</p>
<p>Four sections of first-year chemistry, each one of them with 500 students in the lecture and a bunch of TAs doing the grading (along with computer-based tests and no partial credit). </p>
<p>Lots and lots of students--and from what I can tell, most of them get no emotional or counseling support. Consequently, there's a western dropout rate and no one seems to care (if you look at the percentage who finish college at the state colleges, you'll see that the northeast does the best, with the other regions lower).</p>
<p>Based on my observations of my son's friends, the ones who went to Western Washington University had a more positive experience than those who went to UW or WSU.</p>
<p>If you are wanting to come to WA in general, besides Whitman, which has an excellent reputation, you could also look at Whitworth and Gonzaga in Spokane- they offer merit $ which brings the private down to the cost of a public; if you are not stuck on a big state school in a big city, you could be in WA for less than UW AND be in a smaller environment with personal attention</p>
<p>Pizzagirl -</p>
<p>Check out the U of British Columbia. Located in a relatively nicer part of Van. than U-dub location in Seattle. PNW/Asian vibe in Vancouver more like San Francisco than Seattle.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl--I would not pay OOS for UW for all of the reasons mentioned. It is way too hard to get through in 4 years, housing is terrible with three and even four students being crammed into dorm rooms designed for two. It's a great deal for WA residents and I agree with all of the comments about where it ranks relative to other western universities. If you are in a Big 10 state you are better off with your own overcrowded and impersonal Huge State U at a fraction of the cost.</p>
<p>All that being said, if your son really wants to attend school in the PNW and given his interests I'd say look at Willamette U. in Salem OR, Lewis & Clark in Portland and UPS in Tacoma for solid liberal arts schools with Whitman and Reed being a notch above those three in terms of selectivity. </p>
<p>I have to dispute what Mini said about UW's diversity. The diversity on campus goes way beyond "Chinese and Japanese" with thriving Korean, Vietnamese, Filipino, Indian/Pakistani and other Asian countries represented. The Hispanic and AA presence is low--as it is in many state universities.</p>
<p>UW's Honors Program would add a lot of value, in my opinion. There is more support and nurturing, a cohort of great students, and better access to high-demand courses. I've taught many UW grads, almost all of whom did the honors program, and they seem to have had terrific undergraduate experiences. My S was admitted and I would have happily sent him to UW, but film is his primary interest and UW is not a great place for that. </p>
<p>BTW, I'm surprised by references to the neighborhood being bad. It's a city, sure, so there will be homeless people and some crime, but I think it's actually in a pretty nice setting. The med school, stadium and athletic fields sit on the shore of a beautiful lake, and there's a very fancy shopping center a short walk away. The Ave, as a previous poster noted, has lots of good, cheap food available, and I feel it's very safe for even younger teenagers up until around midnight.</p>
<p>My D- who won't even walk around our block because of anxiety, will take the bus to the Ave to go shopping with her friends.</p>
<p>There are groups of thugs from out of town who are attracted to frat row so I would stay away from that area on weekends, but otherwise the whole Ravenna/Sandpoint/Montlake area, is pretty nice.</p>
<p>UW has a great program called FIGs--Freshman Interest Groups--which organize about 30 students together by shared interest to take classes together and even live on the same dorm floor if desired. The tour guide we had there had enrolled in one as a Freshman and he couldn't say enough good things about it. They went on group outings on the city busses and studied together for tests. Many of the group still get together 4 years later! I read about it on the UW website and would recommend it to avoid that "lost" feeling someone might feel coming from out of state.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl -- Just revisited this thread when it popped up again. I attended the University of Michigan, so maybe that explains my need to point out that a large state university can be a fine choice for students who want a certain kind of college experience. If my out-of-state child wanted such a school, and if I could afford it, I would not hesitate to include UW on the list of "possibles". The experiences of my friends and neighbors (and their kids) who have attended UW -- including the young couple next door who both came from other states to attend UW and have settled here to pursue careers and raise their family -- have generally been very positive. My main concern would be ensuring that my child has the personality to thrive in a large school setting. If so, UW is a fine choice, and certainly on par (at least) with U Wisconsin and the other schools you mentioned.</p>