Who says anything about YEARS of unpaid work?
Everything you guys say can also be said for volunteering, yet I don’t see you guys telling the OP of the work vs. volunteer thread that she’s pimping out her daughter…
This is all part and parcel of how the United States does not actually value work. We value success, yes, but work, we somehow still expect people to voluntarily submit to providing their labor for free. Labor has value and should be compensated with pay!
If only unpaid internships are available for the given kind of job, that is an indication that the labor in question is not valued much – and a signal for the job seeker to consider looking elsewhere (different type of job, different region, etc.) where jobs will be paid.
Well, it could also mean that entry into that field is tightly controlled, and that the people in power are able to extort free labor out of people who want to enter. That’s certainly how it used to be with medical interns–certainly, their work was valuable, but they had no way to avoid the exploitation, if they wanted to become doctors. I think it may be the same way in some entertainment-related fields now (I note that even some paid entry level jobs are really awful, but you need to do them if you want to make it in that field.)
^^^ This.
Each time I applied to a totally new job venue, I started with UNPAID INTERNSHIPS. Next year I hope to take a part-time unpaid internship to try a new occupation.
How else would I be able to know if the new occupation is right for me? How would I know if the team is friendly and professional? Ideally, I always like to work for the new employer first (unpaid volunteer, consultant, short-term gig) before jumping into the new employment.
Personally, I don’t like paid interns. They look like pseudo-employees, cheap part-timers, not ready for a real work. Non-paid volunteers (interns) are often regarded as enthusiasts, working for the cause.
<well established="" companies="" should="" pay="" for="" interships.="" my="" company="" $15-$20="" hour="" interns="">
When one employer suggested $40 per hour. I declined, saying that I would work for free, on a condition that, if the project is successful, they would employ me full time for real salary.
A friend of mine charges $150-$300 per hour, but does lots of pro bono work. Sometimes it is better to work for free (and advertise your services) rather than accept $15/hour with all strings attached.
When the type of job has a labor market that is controlled or manipulated to be very employee-unfavorable, that is a signal to the job seeker that perhaps other types of jobs (where entry level work is paid) would be a better idea.
As an unpaid volunteer you are far more flexible.
- It is much easier to find an internship.
- Employers treat you better. They know that you are volunteer and free to leave at any moment.
- Typically, co-workers are more receptive to you. Mistakes are easily forgiven (it is just a volunteer!).
- You can easily negotiate your schedule, last minute vacations, etc.
Paid internships have all strings attached to a real employment (inflexibility, fixed list of responsibilities, office hours) with very little pay. Further, it is very difficult to get paid internship in addition to a full-time employment. Volunteering is always possible.
<who says="" anything="" about="" years="" of="" unpaid="" work?="">
I think we need some definition of internship. I always assumed that internship is either a couple of months (full time), or a year (maximum) as few hours a week. This way, internship is very helpful networking exercise, IMHO.
@californiaaa I have a full time job. It’s called my paid internship which not only teaches me about the company, but also gives me fixed responsibilities that a real employee would be expected to complete. It’s honestly baffling to me that you think an unpaid internship doing EXACTLY the same thing as a paid one is somehow better.
The reason my company is paying myself and the other interns is because they believe us capable of doing real work. If they did not, I would not have a job.
Given that you are not a student and are pursuing unpaid internships, what you are doing is totally illegal. There are numerous reasons why we have labor laws, but most of them boil down to preventing the exploitation of employees. Even though you have found unpaid internships beneficial, there are a huge number of examples of companies which promise unpaid interns opportunities for future growth in the firm upon satisfactory completion of the internship. Come the end of the summer, they do not follow through with this promise and instead simply use another cohort of unpaid labor the following year.
By the way, for all the talk of the value of an unpaid internship, a 2013 study found that [students who completed an unpaid internship](Why Your Unpaid Internship Makes You Less Employable) earned less post college than their peers who had never taken any internship. Though they were marginally more likely to get a job offer after graduating (37 vs 35%), this rate was dwarfed by their peers who had completed a paid internship. Among that subset of college graduates, 63% of them reported at least one full time offer at a substantially higher starting wage than either the group without an internship or those with an unpaid one.
<given that="" you="" are="" not="" a="" student="" and="" pursuing="" unpaid="" internships,="" what="" doing="" is="" totally="" illegal.="">
Why? I volunteer at the animal shelter, and it is legal. I volunteer as an (unpaid) tutor for school, and it is legal. In September I was promised an unpaid gig in the occupation, that I am curious about. If I would like that gig and if the employer likes me, I would consider a career change. The last thing I need, is some bureaucrat telling me that it is illegal to work for free.
<there are="" a="" huge="" number="" of="" examples="" companies="" promising="" unpaid="" interns="" opportunities="" for="" future="" growth="" in="" the="" firm="" upon="" satisfactory="" completion="" internship="" and="" then="" not="" following="" through="" with="" it,="" only="" to="" get="" new="" crop="" labor="" next="" year.="">
Exactly my point! You need to know your employer before you sign up an employment agreement. If the employer treats interns like this, can you imagine, how full-timers are treated?
I consider internship as a pre-marriage arrangement. It is better to know your partner, to live together for some time, before marriage and kids.
<by the="" way,="" for="" all="" talk="" of="" value="" an="" unpaid="" internship,="" a="" 2013="" study="" found="" that="" students="" who="" completed="" internship="" earned="" less="" post="" college="" than="" their="" peers="" had="" never="" taken="" any="" internship.="" they="" were="" also="" marginally="" more="" likely="" to="" get="" job="" offer="" after="" graduating="" (37="" vs="" 35%).="" by="" contrast="" 63%="" those="" paid="" received="" at="" least="" one="" substantially="" higher="" pay="" rate="" took="">
Sorry, but the study compares apples to oranges. There are industries where all internships are paid (finance, legal). There are occupations where majority of internships are not paid (non profits). You can guess, who earns more 
BTW, women with plastic surgery live, approximately, 20 years longer, than women without plastic surgery. :))
Boy, californiaaa, I admire your willingness to just. get. flamed! You may never live this down 
While that maybe your practice, it is for the most part, illegal.
Actually, many of those are illegal too, at least in California. There are even more rules on what can constitute a volunteer. Dog walking at the animal shelter, sure, no problem. Running the animal shelter’s IT dept for free – that’s a problem.
Non profits are completely different from a for profit enterprise. Volunteering is encouraged because it is assumed that the volunteer is working towards making a better society which is one of the reasons we do not tax non profits. Monsanto and a soup kitchen are treated differently because they have completely different missions. It is in society’s interest that the non profit spend as little as possible on its staffing costs so as to improve the well being of the community. The opposite is true of a for profit.
Your internships are illegal under the second circuit’s new ruling because you’re expecting compensation at the end of the internship. You have also displaced other paid employees in the future (they were willing to offer you $40/hr) AND you were not pursuing an educational program. Any unpaid internship taken under those circumstances would fail even the loose guidelines outlined by the second circuit’s opinion (something which may be challenged).
Then dismantle the FLSA and perhaps the 13th amendment while you’re at it (obviously I am not comparing the horrors of the antebellum plantations to what happened at Fox Search Light). As it stands the government can absolutely tell you that it is illegal to work for free because we’ve realize how much enacting employment laws has helped to prevent the grotesque employee exploitation found in the early 20th century.
Why can the employer not pay the intern for the time they “lived together”? By the way, AFAIK job shadowing is absolutely legal provided the shadower does not do any real work. The moment you’re doing the job, that is when a company must pay you.
It would not be surprising if this was due to the unpaid interns seeking types of jobs where the labor market is very unfavorable for employees (either manipulated / controlled, or just huge numbers of job seekers compared to the number of jobs), resulting in generally lower pay and higher chance of not getting a job at all (meaning going back to square one to seek an entry level job in something else that they may not have prepared themselves as well for in their previous educational choices) than for the types of jobs that paid interns seek.
Again, it depends on the industry. Unpaid interns in broadcast are common; many broadcast positions (the union ones in particular) can pay quite well. Same in the entertainment industry. Pre-meds do unpaid internships all the time, yet clearly that’s generally not a low-pay industry.
Re: #98
Seems like all of these situations are those where there are huge numbers of aspirants trying to get through small gateways to career-track jobs (or medical school admission in the case of pre-meds). So that makes for a situation where the aspirants are easily exploited because they “need” the unpaid experience to even have a chance to pass through the gateways.