Unpaid internships are back! New federal court ruling

I think that unpaid internships can provide long term benefit even if no short term pay. I think the real injustice is that internships are mostly only available to enrolled students, and some even limit interns to certain ages. As an older woman trying to reenter the work force, I would love to have access to internships.

“wouldn’t the paid position have also offered a similar opportunity for career growth?” – Of course. But I wouldn’t have gotten it because I didn’t have the experience. The company wasn’t into paying people to teach them. That’s what school/internships were for.

BTW, it’s great your daughter’s firm pays interns. Clearly, I would have also welcomed that opportunity, too.

Many unpaid internships were offered and taken before courts ruled that they violated labor laws, and they were often taken by wealthier people who could afford not to be paid. That’s why we have minimum wage laws, maximum hours per day or week laws, safety laws. When Microsoft first began, it classified most workers as independent contractors to avoid paying benefits. Courts later found these workers were employees, not contractors. Of course employers would rather have free workers, and if they call them interns, okay call them interns. No.

There are lots of jobs people would do for free because they are so great, so much fun. The ‘pay’ for being a NFL cheerleader is well under minimum wage and the teams argue that it should be a privilege to be on the team, that it’s not a job. Well, the cheerleaders have to attend practices, meet dress and make up standards, etc., so the teams actually control the working conditions of the women. They are employees and should be paid, not withstanding that there are hundreds who would do it for free. An employer doesn’t get to break the minimum wage laws just because he could hire other workers for less.

The ironic thing is that I have seen jobs posted for federal judges that clearly violate labor standards: "must arrive xx weeks early for unpaid training to learn from last year’s clerks…"prior to start of real job and real pay. But clerkships are prestigious and a resume-builder…in the words of ucb, a low clearing price.

Uh, sure, but where is HR when you need them. hahahaha

I’m not sure most companies will offer unpaids even after this. Too fuzzy an area. You can’t be sure their bosses won’t just make them do grunt work and get your company in trouble!

Exempt from minimum wage: many summer/seaonal jobs. my S found this out when a camp offered him less than $5 an hour!

Aww the lobbyists at work! My daughter worked at an amusement park, and in our state seasonal employers dont have to pay overtime if you work over 40 hours.


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The company wasn’t into paying people to teach them.

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That’s too bad. Many employers are very happy to teach newer employees the ropes, and of course promote them up the ranks as they learn. Your employer could have offered a minimum wage “trainee” position rather than an internship.

You had a college degree. Presumably you had picked up a few useful skills along the way.

Yes, the internship was an entry point for you – but still at the expense of a paid worker.

“Yes, the internship was an entry point for you – but still at the expense of a paid worker.”

The work I did as an intern did not exist ever as a real position. Half the time I did nothing but shadow. For me it was worthwhile to observe and to learn, but it’s not like there was a paid shadow before or after me! It’s not like photogs had someone else to help haul their gear when I wasn’t around: I did it in exchange for the things they were teaching me. When there was no intern to do these things, the photographers hauled their own gear.

And, yea, it would be nice if companies paid people to teach them. I’m certainly not disagreeing.

Sadly, I lived in an area where those kinds of opportunities weren’t common; I lived in a state where unions almost don’t exist, where workers’ rights is “socialist-go-back-to-Russia talk” and where right-to-work really means right-to-fire-without-cause. I live in a state where no one shames a CEO for telling his staff that their pay will be docked if they leave early – even if there’s a raging snow storm, the highways are about to be shut down and the governor is about to declare a state of emergency.

You really think in a climate like this, companies will say, gee – wouldn’t it be a nice gesture to hire unskilled staff so we can teach them.

Yea right.

Why did you consider yourself “unskilled” after you had already graduated from college?

Have you read the whole thread? My education was not in broadcast or in journalism. Either was a requirement for any entry level job – that or a demo tape. I had skills which could have been quickly adapted – and some additional ones that the news director was looking for. The internship was necessary for me to learn some basics, a lot of industry terms, put together a modest demo reel and get enough practical experience so that I could competently perform on the lowest non secretarial newsroom position.
I was, in essence, retraining from an industry in which I worked in California, and which didn’t exist in the state I relocated to.

I read post #34 from @austinmshauri - “I got my first broadcasting job because I took a clerical job at the station and made sure the production manager knew I had a broadcast degree.” There are other avenues of entry for beyond unpaid work.

The ironic thing is that I have seen jobs posted for federal judges that clearly violate labor standards: "must arrive xx weeks early for unpaid training to learn from last year’s clerks…"prior to start of real job and real pay. But clerkships are prestigious and a resume-builder…in the words of ucb, a low clearing price.

Government jobs can be unpaid internships. There are postings right now for assistant US Attorneys where the pay is ZERO for one or two years. Years. These are positions that should pay $80k plus, but there is no money in the budget so they get lawyers who want the experience to work for free.

Most agencies have paid internships. My agency was next door to a law school and we had two interns who were great students. The competition was intense for these two positions. We paid and paid well.

Calmom, again, I am very happy your daughter was paid for her internship. All I got for mine was academic credit (which is legal even today) a demo tape… and a job. Funny, I still think I was well compensated. And I’m very, very sorry I ever got on this thread. Nothing like career advice from perfect strangers 25+ years after the fact.

@katliamom
Your career action 25+ years ago was the rational thing for u to do. It was legal, and it was common practice. But since then, unpaid non-governmental internships were ruled illegal. This Fox ruling opens the door to those old exploitive company practices.

Katlia, my daughter didn’t have an internship. I mentioned that the company where she works pays its interns very well… but she wasn’t an intern. She filled out a job application 3 years ago and applied for a job. She went to a job interview and then was hired. She’s been promoted twice since then. Like @austinmshauri she found that taking a clerical position for which she was well-qualified (over-qualified actually) put her in a position to be able to step forward and take on new responsibilities as opportunities came up.

But the point isn’t about my D-- it’s about the practice of private, for-profit companies bringing in full time workers at -0- pay with the label of “intern”. I simply posted because you made some comments about the broadcast industry, and that’s where my D. happens to work – and I happen to know that her company pays its interns.

You were able to get what you perceived as an advantage by being willing to work for free way back when – but the reality that you could only do that because you had some other source of income or support to get you through that time. My dd has been self-supporting since the day she graduated from college – she needs a paying job. If the only way to break into a particular company or industry is via unpaid internships, then the door is shut to young people who need an income to pay for food and housing.

No one is attacking you for what you did for yourself many years ago: but that doesn’t make it right to force others to do the same. Maybe for you it was a path toward getting something you wanted – but for the company you worked for, it was free labor. No one is saying that young people can’t offer themselves up to work for free – just that private for-profit companies are going to have to abide by the rules. It would be the same rationale if someone offered to work for less than minimum wage – or to work overtime without being compensated - appealing to the company who receives that offer, but a violation of the laws on the books designed to protect all workers.

^^a very cogent argument, Calmom!

@GMTplus7 it would still be the rational thing to do today. Unpaid internships for academic credit are legal today. And can still open great avenues whether or not you like the fact. Come live in flyover country and see what kind of opportunities people have. And then comment. Or go into politics and change labor laws. But until you do, don’t presume that what you think is the right career move for yourself or your child is the right career move for everyone.

I think there is a distinction between what is rational for an individual to do, and what it is ethical (or legal) for employers to do. There is no question that it may be a good career move for an individual student to accept an upaid internship. But (in my opinion) the system also allows a lot of abuse, with “interns” being used to perform work that doesn’t really teach them anything or provide them with any future opportunities.

I think you’re equating rational with ethical. E.g., paying bribes is rational, but not ethical.

By offering to work for free or for college credit, you are paying to work and engaging in a quid pro quo w that employer to influence your likelihood of landing a regular job.

Granting college credit costs the employer nothing. Colleges that engage in this practice are essentially ** pimping** out the students.

People have to work within a system. With the decline in the economy for recent graduates that is now getting into a decade, many have bought in the “needed internship” model as a precursor to finding employment. It is not different from the situation that convinced a good number of parents to fund graduate studies for their children who found few jobs at the level of the education.

If unpaid internships DURING the college years made “some” sense, they lose all luster after graduation. Yet, the “system” is using and abusing the availability of a cheap labor source. The reality is that, safe and except a small number of cottage industries, the practice should be made entirely illegal and regulated with a lot more vigor by the government. The same should apply to the practice of declaring students and recent graduates independent workers and “1099” them.

Lastly, while some MIGHT benefit from their internships, there is no guarantee that future employers will value the experience, and might actually frown upon a candidate with years of internships and no regularly compensated employment. I can tell this IS happening at the companies where I have worked!