I’m thinking the people who regularly participate in this forum are unaware that when readers and posters view “latest posts”, we see posts from across the entire forum, not just a handful of sub forums that we regularly read/ contribute to. Occasionally a title is interesting and we may read and or comment on it.
Speaking for myself, I would have thought that a kid who wants to convince a skeptical parent about the feasibility of a potential plan would welcome the opportunity to practice on other skeptical parents. It could have been a good way for the poster to work out potential arguments. Instead, apparently the poster was just really looking for validation and the regular posters of this forum like to do that along with sprinkling pixie dust.
Again, speaking for myself, I’ll be sure next time I click on an interesting title to look at the name of the subforum it is attached to before I comment.
I think what the non-regulars to this forum were reacting to was not that the OP wants to go into the fine arts but this:
From what I’ve read of their posts in other fora neither @intparent nor @GMTplus7 would counsel any kid to rack up “tons of debt for a career that is not the most secure financially,” regardless of major.
I understand that parents here want to be supportive and not crush kids’ dreams, but I don’t see any harm in injecting a hard note of financial realism. I’ve seen too many articles with titles like “30 and still living with my parents” and “Ivy League degree but $100,000 in debt” to be critical of Dad under these circumstances. The OP asked for thoughts and posters, some of whom do not have theater major kids, gave them.
I’m glad the OP clarified that he was not in fact talking about “tons” but rather an “average” amount of debt, but I’d still be curious as to what that means and what his backup plan is. I’m paying full freight for my kids to attend an expensive school and major in relatively impractical majors, but they will also graduate debt free and they have backup plans which do not include the words “Mom and Dad’s basement.” The OP’s dad has every right to be concerned if the OP is asking him to take out loans, particularly if the student’s plans lead to the possibility he will need further post-graduation support.
I have a niece, extremely bright and talented, who won all sorts of acting awards in high school and college, produced and directed her own plays…and spent the first two years our of college living with her parents. She’s now cobbled together enough fine arts work to be able to move out, but that would never have been possible had she graduated with student debt. If forced to pay off loans she would most likely have had to abandon the theater altogether.
I think the OP is getting a lot of good advice on ways to mitigate costs while still getting a high quality education so I’ll just leave my comments at that.
@40yearoldvirgin, my husband was initially very much against my son going into theater. My son sat down one afternoon and wrote an email to him, explaining why he wanted this major. My husband is still not entirely comfortable with the career plan, but he understands it now and has been a lot more supportive. Below is my son’s email–maybe you can write to your dad. Whether you send an email or just sit down and talk with your dad, make sure it is frank and heartfelt. Good luck!
"Love you dad, and I know you’re worried about my future, but I want you to see my point of view. I understand your concerns about me being able to earn a living in the future, but I want you to see that my college choices CAN mean I will learn a profession and earn a living.
I know you think I am not as certain or as “passionate” about theatre as other people who make a living out of it. But, I’m telling you, I am. I’m a kind of a low-key guy so I’m not going to go into fits telling you how passionate I am—you just have to take my word for it. I’ve been doing this since I was nine or ten years old. I know you think mom kind of led me into it, but there really isn’t anything else I like better to do. I really love being in a new show and every tells me I’m good at it. Ok, I’m pretty good at math, but I’m not a math genius and I don’t love it. Same for computers, physics, etc. I’d rather be an excellent actor than an office worker or engineer who isn’t great at his job and doesn’t especially like doing it.
You’ve said I don’t practice and you think I don’t work hard at it. But you’re wrong—I always work harder than anyone else at school in the shows. I spend more time on the acting and more time practicing the singing. You don’t see it all, but I practice about four or five times a week, plus lessons, sometimes at school and sometimes at home. I practice guitar all the time and I’m getting back into practicing piano. When I’m in a show, I practice even more but you just don’t hear it. I’ll never be able to practice as much as mom wants unless I practice ten hours a day.
A degree in theatre is really hard work. In fact, people say it is a lot harder than some other subjects. Most programs have 18 credit hours, then a lot of practice and rehearsals. Just like any other degree, there are gen ed courses, like English and math. There’s also tech classes, stage management, backstage, set building, etc, as electives. My plan is to take as many set building/carpentry classes as I can, because I like doing that and because it’s a professional skill. Most programs start off the day with a 8 am dance class. If I had to go to an accounting or computer class at 8 am, I’d want to stay in bed. But I would get up for a dance class. (I didn’t think I would like my dance class on Wednesday nights, but it is really good and I never miss it, even when I’m tired.)
I want college to be the time where I learn how to be a professional. Two of the colleges I went to visit with mom told us that you work hard for four years with long hours and very intense training. I like the sound of that a lot. I don’t want to be a lazy bum in college with drinking, getting up late, and going to frat parties or football games. I want to learn how to make a living doing something that I like and I’m good at. As well as acting/singing classes, the colleges we visited did classes in career planning and business skills. The people there kept saying that you need lots of different skills to sell yourself as an actor and they train you for that.
My ACT and GPA (3.9) are good right now, but not enough to get me big scholarships in business or engineering. In theatre, I’ve got a shot of getting a good talent scholarship. I can work during the summers, too.
You say there are a lot of unemployed actors, but there are a lot of unemployed students with other majors too. Or lots of them working in fast food or whatever. Everyone’s got an undergrad degree these days and it doesn’t mean they are all going to get great jobs.
It’s hard to think about what I might do if I “fail” as an actor because I don’t plan to fail. But there are lots of people who go back to school or another kind of training or work their way up in a different kind of job. Sometimes the kind of degree you have doesn’t matter. It’s just having the degree that matters.
Actors learn a lot of things as well as acting and singing. They learn how to sell themselves and their shows, how to communicate and talk to people, how to understand psychology, how to build and work tech, etc. It’s not a dead-end degree.
So there you go. This is something I really want to do and I can’t imagine going to college for anything else. We’ve had a lot of career classes and counselling classes at school and there is just nothing else I want to do right now and nothing else I think I can be excellent at. That might change as I get older, and if it does I’ll make a new plan. I don’t want to disappoint you, dad, or make you worried about me, but acting is something I just have to do or I think I will regret it."
@40yearoldvirgin. one more thing–there are plenty of kids who go to auditions alone. In fact, I get the impression colleges prefer it that way. The faculty are really impressed by the maturity it takes to work through the process alone. My son will be doing a couple of auditions alone or with a friend from school. You won’t feel out of place, as most kids (especially boys, I think), try to stay as far away from their parents as possible on audition day. Good luck!
Don’t worry about being there alone…I saw many kids roaming the hallways of Unified alone and several who were at my daughter’s one on campus audition who arrived without parents. The bigger issue for you I am guessing is that you don’t have the emotional support from your Dad. Give him time…maybe with him seeing your drive and dedication to this career path he will eventually jump on board. Don’t give up on him or yourself.
There’s a kid down the street who – 2 years ago – sounded a lot like you. He really really wanted to try acting (he even had a place to live…with an aunt in the city) but his parents were 100% convinced that he needed a traditional degree first. Because his grades were not stellar (super-smart kid…but he spent all of his time in both school and community plays as well as playing keyboards in a band), he ended up going to a so-so school. Fast forward to two years later…he’s dropped out of college and is working as a waiter at an upscale burger place here in town…and considering community college. But the worst part is that his confidence is shot. There’s no way he would head to NYC now and give it a try…he’s just too bruised from all of the losses (his snazzy girlfriend from high school broke up with him, his grades weren’t good, he got into too much drinking, etc.)
I think about this kid a lot…and its given me an open mind to what other kids (including my own) might be going through. What’s wrong with taking a year to pursue a far-fetched dream? Worst-case scenario, you start school at 19 instead of 18. Go to the audition. if it leads to a great acting career/college, do it.
Marymount Manhattan’s BFA in Acting is 60 credits (unlike other colleges where the BFA is 90 credits), which allows for a double major. They actually tout that as a selling point on their website, that as an acting major you can also double major in something else. So that might be a good compromise that your dad might support.
@40yearoldvirgin I’m sorry to hear that your dad isn’t supportive of your desire to study theater. In answer to your initial question, you can absolutely go to auditions alone. At my son’s audition two weeks ago, the only thing he physically needed me to do was to hold his stuff when he went into the room. In fact, students signed him in and called him into the room when they were ready, so the auditors didn’t even know I was there.
Emotional support is another thing. As a parent of three theater kids (one in college, one auditioning this year, and another with a few years left in high school), I can’t tell you how often I have to field comments from other adults related to how they’d never allow their child to pursue the arts and that my kids will never have jobs that support them and will live in my basement forever. There are some good blog posts (and articles on specific theater school websites) that outline how useful a degree in theater can be even for other fields if the acting thing doesn’t work out. I think that people judge theater majors harshly and expect that unless they’ve heard of a performer, that performer isn’t a success.
You know that your dad worries for you and that this is where this is coming from. My oldest chose her college in part because she got a full tuition scholarship at that school. It was such a hard decision because she was torn between the college she chose and another fantastic school that would have resulted in over a hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt. We helped her to see that if she has to work so hard at multiple survival jobs just to pay her student loans, she’s not going to have enough time to audition and further her acting profession. That speaks to your dad’s point as well. I know that you have Pace in your sights but you say that you live in Virginia, right? What do you think about JMU? It’s in-state for you and has a good BA theater program (and enough room for a double major or more intensive work in theater through electives beyond your major).
Fair criticism. I was generalizing my experience and because I see too many ungrateful kids and too many young people struggling with debt and regretting their decisions. However, this thread wasn’t a place for that. Sorry OP. All the best to you!
Here is a point brought up by the naysayers which is certainly true- anyone who is majoring in the arts needs to be prepared for others to not understand. My husband and I are fully on board with D’s choice of careers and choice of school (NYU- gasp…oh wait it’s an incredibly well regarded school and has a great theater program which has produced thousands of successful performers- ok, I feel better) but not everyone in our extended families agrees- and she/we have had to attempt to “justify” it many many times (from the well meaning, “oh, but she’s so smart… shouldn’t she have a ‘real’ major”… to the more combative “hope she likes living in your basement”). But just because it isn’t the life someone ELSE would choose for themselves doesn’t make it a bad decision. I think the “non” theater people who have been posting would be surprised how many BFA kids have “being a superstar” as their career plan. I know mine doesn’t. She wants to be a part of something she loves, and is passionate about, and can’t WAIT to learn more about. Sounds like a pretty good thing to me…
I would be thrilled if my son ended up a Middle School Theatre teacher
My husband and I needed time to come to the realization that our son should major in Acting. I first found CC when I thought my son would be a STEM major, then I thought he would be a music major. I had to go through the process of letting go of my vision, and to begin to see my son through his eyes. Go to your auditions and knock 'em dead!! Your success will show your father that you may not be on a wild goose chase after all, and that your desire might have some basis in reality. It wasn’t until my son passed his pre-screens that I finally exhaled, and knew I wasn’t a fool to let him pursue his goal. Give your father time and show him you know what you want to do with your life. BAL!!!
Agreed @entertainersmom - any school that offered middle school theater as a class would be A+ in my book! I direct 2 shows a year for middle school age kids- one as an EC through my school district (and we open Bye Bye Birdie tomorrow- super excited!) and one through a youth theater program in the summer. I love working with them.
Ditto on the teacher comment. I too would be delighted.
The subject of incurring debt to study theatre comes up a lot in this forum. The loudest voices screaming do not go into significant college debt to study theatre are fellow actors or the parents of actors. It is insane to take on major debt for this field as it is too hard to service it on what one can reasonably expect to earn unless you are the lucky few which no one should count on. There is a way to convey that message without making a poster feel like they were up to something sinister especially after they have patiently tried to clarify what they meant several times.
No one is spreading pixie dust over the father’s position. On the contrary, we get it and said so. But people here clearly don’t agree with it because well, this is the theatre/drama majors forum which means it’s a field of study we value despite the financial prospects. Like @toowonderful mentioned above, having a college degree in something you love is a good thing.
Dreams change with the reality of life. Many actors quickly discover they need to go wherever the work is (Chicago, Philadelphia, Wichita…) vs. getting too stuck on the idea of the NYC dream. That doesn’t mean one shouldn’t have their dreams and that a senior in HS needs to start out with a plan that assumes their dreams will never be realized. How sad is that? A plan that includes applying to schools that are known to be generous with merit money indicates the OP is being thoughtful and is not just stuck in fantasy land.
Nope, Dad does not have to pay and maybe he won’t unless you major in something else. He won’t be the first parent to come to that conclusion and I wish @40yearoldvirgin the best in making your case. My very brilliant niece was told by her wealthy grandparents that they were going to significantly help pay for college. So with that message and the financial flexibility that came with it, she applied to many of the ivies, Northwestern the UCs. She did not get into the ivies but got into Northwestern and Berkeley. Nope, the grandparents didn’t really mean they would pay for college. They meant that they would pay for Harvard, Yale, Princeton. Their bias about what mattered (bragging rights?) meant she had to adjust. So she went to Berkeley in-state because it was what she could afford without the grandparents and 5 years later applied to grad schools including all of the ivies. Got into all of them with money coming out her ears and is now getting her PhD at Stanford. You’d think it was all because of the beaming grandparents to hear them talk now.
Middle school theater teaching is a fine job but not if you have a family to support and have tons of debt from NYU. There is no harm in showing kids both sides of the picture. Ones who really love theater, would do it regardless yet they’ll be making an educated decision.
I agree with you @WorryHurry411. Tons of debt from any school including NYU is probably not a good plan for anyone planning a career in theatre, or teaching or just about anything. My sister in law is a doctor (veterinarian) and has hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt. I guess she also really loves animals and followed her passion. But she will be paying on that debt for the next 30 years and now has two kids including one whom is severely disabled so she cannot practice full time. Wish things were different for them.
@austinmshauri , the info your provided about how the FAFSA would haunt you until you were 24 unless you are married or in the military was a helpful response to something someone else brought up. Nobody is objecting to that.
My college roommate graduated from CMU in the very, very insanely competitive and prestigious musical theater department. She is beautiful, brilliant, and incredibly talented. She was never able to create a career solid enough to support herself and at the age of 45 still has college debt and works as a yoga teacher.
My best friend from high school was a theater major, was also incredibly talented and graduated with a bfa. She was also never able to support herself in the arts and now works in insurance.
You are certainly welcome to pursue a degree in the arts, but your stubborn cognitive dissonance as to the hard realities of choosing this path says to me that any discussion about the realities of finance will fall on deaf ears.
I suspect what is happening with your dad is that he’s trying to counsel you as to the realities of your dream, and you don’t want to hear it because you’re going to make it.
It’s easy to say “don’t live your life for financial reasons” when you haven’t been completely broke and drowning under six figures of debt. You have NO idea how awful that feels. None. So don’t go blithely dismissing it and acting like the people who are taking the time to counsel you shouldn’t even be allowed in the forum.
And I’m a working creative, so don’t pull the “you money people don’t understand”. We DO understand; you’re just not listening to us.
I think your dad would go to your auditions and “support you” if you were willing to meet him halfway and have a mature conversation about what your college choices can mean for both you and him in the future. It’s the least you can do, in my opinion.
NO ONE- INCLUDING THE OP - IS ADVOCATING TAKING ON DEBT!!! @MotherOfDragons Majoring in the arts does not make anyone ignorant to “the realities of finance” - it could just mean that there is something they value more. #whatididforlove.
NO ONE can graduate from college today without significant debt no matter their major….unless parents, grandparents etc help out. What this OP is choosing to follow as career path makes no difference. Until we have a system like other countries that provide free college education for its citizens then parents need to provide this monetary support. This horse is dead….
