<p>Xig's got it right. The McDermott at UT-D is one of the most generous programs of it's kind in the nation. The benefits go far beyond tuition and fees, room and board. The opportunities are extremely enticing. Our first NMF in school history is a McDermott scholar and turned down our flagships, and a few good in-state LAC packages to attend.</p>
<p>There has been a lot of activity on this thread while I've been gone!</p>
<p>Hey, I've gotten a lot of helpful info from everyone, even though I told you very little about what my son is looking for. I agree that I asked what the schools were like, and people answered my questions, and now it's up to us to decide if it's a good fit or not.</p>
<p>He's not into music (other than electric guitar for fun), and is very geeky but not JUST geeky - he does seek an active social life with plenty of political activism. Actually, UT Austin is truly the most perfect fit of any school in the country (that we've looked at) because it has it all - top-notch academics, political activism, liberal-leaning, plenty of diversity, active music scene, alternative housing options...etc. AND it's only an hour's drive from home, so he can be independent yet not have to worry about shipping his guitar and computer on holidays. Probably the only negative about UT Austin is its size. I think this is both a pro and a con.</p>
<p>He has already applied to a couple of out-of-state schools, but I don't want him to count on those because it's a long shot that they will even be possible, because of cost. So, I wanted him to pick another Texas public school as a backup just in case UT Austin does not accept him. A&M is definitely too conservative for him as far as social climate, so what does that leave? Texas Tech is in Lubbock, which seems to be very conservative also. </p>
<p>OK, so then there's UNT and UTD. From what everyone has just said, it doesn't sound like either of them are a good fit.</p>
<p>That leaves UTSA. Well, actually he is already enrolled there. He was homeschooled and started attending SAC as a dual-credit student in 10th grade. He's now supposed to be in 12th but graduated a year early. We made the decision to do this rather abruptly when he maxed out the dual credit. It was either graduate and continue to take classes, or take no college classes this past fall. So, he graduated and continued. Then he outgrew the cc so we decided it would be a great transition to go to UTSA part-time in the spring, then transfer to UT Austin in the fall. So, UTSA is always a backup.</p>
<p>"how could anyone describe UT San Antonio as anything but an academic wasteland? Among all schools in the UT system, San Antonio is at the very bottom."</p>
<p>Well, I knew UTSA was not in the same league as UT-A but wow, I didn't realize it was THAT bad! They sure made a grand effort at erasing such stigma at the orientation. They said their classes are every bit as challenging as those at UT-A but they just don't have the ranking because they are still a young school and have plenty of room, so they accept nearly all applicants.</p>
<p>UTSA was never intended to be my son's final destination. He will probably only spend 1 semester there. But, I would like to know why you consider it THAT bad.</p>
<p>And, are there any others that we should consider? I know about some good privates but then again is the cost issue. He may still apply to Southwestern anyway, as a long shot. But are there any other state schools that might be a better backup than UTSA? Thanks</p>
<p>I would take a closer look at Tech. It is big enough that there are going to be plenty of liberals (it isn't UT Austin, though, for sure). The Honors College is excellent, and it has big time sports. As a bonus, you get Bobby Knight. Seriously- ask poster LonestarDad about it. His S goes there. I have heard some academicians saying it is the gem in the system- the two flagships are just too big for many kids.</p>
<p>"how could anyone describe UT San Antonio as anything but an academic wasteland? Among all schools in the UT system, San Antonio is at the very bottom."</p>
<p>How could somebody make such a harsh claim? Xiggi, what is the basis of your claim? Don't tell me it is the pathetic USNWR ranking! UTSA is NOT an academic wasteland!!! It's a young school (only about 35 years young!) that is working very hard to become one of the leading universities in Texas. I live in San Antonio and I know several successful dentists, physicians, and lawyers that received their undergraduate degree from UTSA.</p>
<p>For those considering an honors college at a Texas publicly supported university, here's a bit more about Texas Tech's Honors College. I am a big believer in "giving back" and for the positive things Tech's Honors College has done for my son (now a junior), my CC posts spreading the good word are my attempt at giving back.</p>
<p>Here is a most recent instance of what Tech's Honors College and the University can do for a student with my son as the example. Like most college students, my son has been experimenting with different career options - government/political science one semester, business the next semester, and now he has decided pretty firmly that law school is for him. Well, this coming semester Tech's Honors College is giving him the opportunity of taking a Constitutional Law class in Tech's Law School (taught by an associate dean of the law school) so he will learn first-hand what being a law school student may portend. </p>
<p>I believe Tech's Honors College takes good high school students and gives them an array of opportunities to discover things for themselves and blossom in the process. My son was no more than a good high school student and through those Tech Honors College opportunities he is doing much better than that academically and extra-curricularly - if there is such a phrase - today. And those opportunities await other interested high school students.</p>
<p>Here's an impression of Tech from a visit by Anxiousmom and her son last summer. </p>
<p>"We visited TTU in Lubbock, Texas with DS, who wants a full-college experience, including football, sports, nice campus, good academics.
We were not expecting to get that at Texas Tech in Lubbock, Texas, but were very pleasantly surprised. Although the surrounding town is not much to look at, the campus was lovely, green and lush and well laid-out. Sculptures dotted the campus, along with beautiful fountains, and lovely buildings. We took a tour with a very enthusiastic student volunteer, who showed us around in the 100 degree heat. Standout buildings included the new Student Center - with a internal pedestrian corridor w/little shops on each side, including a computer repair, Barnes and Noble, bank, wireless phone, computer sales, quick restuarants, and theater, numerous nooks and areas for studying, a wonderful Rec Center - with the now obligatory climbing wall, inside track, pool, raquetball, etc., and library, built like a stack of books turned on end, with a lovely cool lobby with fountain and casual seating areas.
Admissions Dept. was kind enough to call over to the Engineering department, and, even though it was "new student orientation", they managed schedule us a visit with the engineering advisor. He was extremely enthusiastic, and spent almost an hour with us, showing us the various student labs, and discussing all the cool co-op, research and internship programs available to students. We were also able to meet with an equally enthusiastic Honors college advisor, who touted the benefits of the program. (Priority registration, 1-2 smaller classes per semester, special advising, research ops, special study-abroad, honors dorm, etc.) My son was most excited about some of the non-academic things.. (The student ID serves as free ticket to all football, basketball, etc. games!) Honors dorms include ensuite bathroom, and shared living area between 2 bedrooms - and are centrally located on campus. Tech has also built upperclassman apartments, and some that are available to freshman, also.
Scholarships are good - for NMS and non-NMS alike. It is rumored that there will be changes to the scholarship program in October, so we will be keeping out eyes on that. All in all, a nice alternative to our flagship state school (UT Austin), and other big rival (A & M - which I did not like at all!!!!!)."</p>
<p>Hey, I'm quoted!! So cool! <em>preens, smiles, bows and waits for applause...</em> ;) Yeh, anyway... we thought UT-D was good for commuters, computer science and electrical engineering, and it looked like free for DS, given his stats - but it really lacked any sense of history or community or tradition - it's more like a professional school for the older student or someone who is very career path oriented. The new science building looked fabulous, covered with shiny blue scales, and the student center was nice, though small. Student reviews on that studentreviews.com were not very positive, so we crossed UT-D off after visiting. Free was good, though!</p>
<p>
[quote]
"how could anyone describe UT San Antonio as anything but an academic wasteland? Among all schools in the UT system, San Antonio is at the very bottom."</p>
<p>How could somebody make such a harsh claim? Xiggi, what is the basis of your claim?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you disputing the fact that UTSA is at the bottom of the UT System? Or was it the term academic wasteland that was too harsh? </p>
<p>For the basis to my claim, I would indeed use statistics, but not the USNews rankings. It is simpler to stick to the admission requirements, minimum SAT requirements (how do you interpret a SAT of 830 out of 1600,) and pesky numbers such as graduation rates. However, that is only part of the basis for my harsh judgment: I can also rely on family members having attended and ... taught at the school, as well as knowing the final destination of students in a number of high school graduating classes. </p>
<p>How many students do attend UTSA by choice versus forced circumstances? How many graduate from UTSA in four years, considering only 29% graduate in 6 years? Schools such as UTSA "should" have a role to play in Texas Education. Time has come to revisit that role, because one has to wonder if providing a glorified remedial education for a couple of years to hordes of unprepared students is part of a solution or part of a problem.</p>
<p>"UTSA is NOT an academic wasteland!!! It's a young school (only about 35 years young!) that is working very hard to become one of the leading universities in Texas. I live in San Antonio and I know several successful dentists, physicians, and lawyers that received their undergraduate degree from UTSA."</p>
<p>Thanks, that is reassuring!</p>
<p>xiggi: regarding admissions requirements: The UTSA tour guide told us that it is a myth that it's an 'easy' school just because it has low admission requirements. She said that the reason they have a policy of accepting nearly everyone is that they simply have plenty of room, since the school is so young, and there is no need to turn anyone away.</p>
<p>So, do low admissions requirements necessarily equate to easy classes? I would think not. And, as far as the low graduation rate, there is an easy explanation for that: those students who got in easily but failed to rise to the challenge are being weeded out.</p>
<p>Think about it logically:</p>
<p>If there were low admission requirements AND a high graduation rate, then that would be an indication of poor academics, because even the poor-performing students would be graduating. </p>
<p>But, since there are low admission requirements and LOW graudation rates, then, duh, that means a lot of people are being weeded out due to challenging academics!</p>
<p>Makes perfect sense to me!</p>
<p>The main reason my son has not chosen UTSA as his final destination is simply that he was brought up in SA and wants to spread his wings a bit. He loves the 'coolness' factor of Austin. And, he wants to be on his own. We couldn't really justify the housing costs if he went to school here in town, and it would be stagnating for him to stay at home. </p>
<p>Actually, there may one important advantage to staying at UTSA - smaller classes. IF what the tour guide told us is true - that the classes at UTSA are just as demanding as those at UT-A, it doesn't sound like it would be such a bad thing.</p>
<p>And, actually we did meet 2 prospective students on the tour who said they had chosen UTSA over UT-A. I was very surprised. One said it was because UT-A was 'too big' and the other said it was because UTSA was in close proximity to the UTHSCA Medical School, to which she planned to transfer.</p>
<p>Then, we met yet another student currently attending, of all places, Texas State U in San Marcos! She said she actually got accepted to UT-A and attended there for one semester, then decided to go to T. State because UT-A was too big and cumbersome. It was NOT because of bad grades - the girl had a high GPA even at UT.</p>
<p>My son is not interested in T. State for a variety of reasons. I think UTSA is a far better choice than that. But, I am just sharing that story to make the point that there are many factors to consider.</p>
<p>Lealdragon, there is one area where the UT system shines, and that is its willingness to make abundant and abundantly clear data available to the public at large. The reports are easily available. I would highly encourage you to spend some time accessing them. This might help you decide if the helpful TOUR GUIDE was indeed dispelling a myth or ... repeating one. </p>
<p>In the same vein, the UT system does spend much money and energy to analyze --and attempt to correct-- the issue of poor graduation rates. Again, it will be up to you to ascertain the importance of challenging classes as one of the causes, and then compare the numbers with peer institutions and schools considered as ... targets.</p>
<p>It so happens that in Texas, from about 112,000 annual unique applicants, more than 99,000 DO get accepted. Interestingly enough, one would not get that idea from hearing most parents discuss the great difficulty of gaining acceptance at a Texas University. The sad reality is that Texas does indeed almost guarantee that every Texan High Schooler could find a spot ... somewhere ... anywhere. And what does not seem to matter is that the student is prepared or possesses a modicum of literacy. </p>
<p>The question for you to answer is the level of impact of the quasi open-door policies at a number of schools of the UT system on your decisions.</p>
<p>Good points, xiggi. So, then which Texas public school do you think is academically the best, next to Austin? (and besides A&M). Any others that you think are challenging, besides UT-D?</p>
<p>My intention is not to necessarily defend UTSA. It really is only a backup in case either a.) son decides he doesn't want to move out yet or b.) he doesn't get accepted to Austin or c.) Finances preclude moving away to go to school or d.) he decides to stay there another year and then transfer.</p>
<p>Right now, the plan IS to go to UT Austin. He and I have scoured many college brochures and books, and, while there were some oos schools he was interested in, and he did apply to a couple of them, realistically they are a long shot because of cost. And, even if cost were not a factor, UT-A would probably still be his #1 choice. </p>
<p>So, I am asking about the other Texas schools strictly as a backup. It turns out that I know very little about them and all of this info is proving very helpful.</p>
<p>Xiggi, although the required minimum SAT for someone ranked in the Top 25% is only 830, the average SAT of the students at UTSA is 991 (as per Princeton Review).</p>
<p>UTSA does have a serious issue with the graduation rate, something they are seriously working on.</p>
<p>And despite the fact that UTSA is not in the same league as UT Austin, UTD, or even UT Arlington, I wouldn't put UTSA at the very bottom of the list of UT System schools. Remember there are five other campuses (Brownsville, El Paso, Pan American, Permian Basin, and Tyler). You can visit <a href="http://www.utsa.edu/About/marksofexcellence.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.utsa.edu/About/marksofexcellence.htm</a> to see why UTSA deserves more respect.</p>
<p>"How many students do attend UTSA by choice versus forced circumstances?" You mean academic circumstances, because they do not have the grades or SAT scores to go to another university? I would say many, but probably not as many as you might have come to believe. A large number of students are the first generation in their families that attend a college, and they simply can't afford to move away to go to school in another city or state. So they choose to stay and attend UTSA. Now you tell me, is this what you would call "by choice" or "forced circumstances"?</p>
<p>In any case, I would be very careful to call a school "an academic wasteland". You might be fortunate enough to attend a much better school while many other less fortunate people try and make their lives better by going to schools like UTSA. But that doesn't mean the school is an "academic wasteland" and it certainly does not earn you the right to call it so!</p>
<p>Thanks for your good points, goldtx. And, UTSA has a great number of older students as well.</p>
<p>The advantage UTSA has over a number of Texas schools is its location in a city where the cultural and business opportunities can supplement the school. If you go to a school in an outlying location without a major city to supplement, you are very dependent upon the school to provide you with everything. Not a problem at the top schools that are major centers themselves with every amenity under the sun. But if you are going to a non mainline/non flagship U, having it located in a city with resources can be important. One family we know who has 3 kids having gone/going to UTSA, has found the experience a wonderful one. Their kids have found housing off campus that is nice and affordable. Jobs and a great social life, and they are getting their college degrees at affordable in state prices. Ths school has the courses they need and want, at a schedule they can handle. I believe the oldest ended up at the school after some rounds at far more selective colleges including at ivy, but the other two went directly there. I believe UT Austin was the first choice for the middle one, but she did not get in. But both parents of this family are college savvy and have graduated from top colleges. for them to be pleased with the situation says a lot to me. Also know a few others whose kids went through there, and are doing well. THis is surprising since I know so few kids who went to TX other than Rice. All anecdotal, but it does tell you that a school can be a great fit even if it doesn't look so hot on paper. I can personally tell you that I like San Antoinio as a city. Not too big, and very charming. The Savannah of Texasa, I would say. I could live there, and get what I want from there, and I am a city gal. </p>
<p>From the discussion on this thread, if UT Austin is not a go, UTD is the next choice on the Texas academic hierarchy. Is that right, Xiggi? What are the top state schools in Texas for kid who doesn't have any specific major in mind, a B/C student with average/slightly above avg test scores who wants to go away for college? This is a question coming up on several threads as the flagships Unis become more and more selective, and private costs sky rocket as well. I just posted on one asking about Georgia Southern, a school that has so greatly benefitted from the effects of the Hope program that has raised standards at UGA at GTech, with more kids staying in state.</p>
<p>Also, the graduation rates from many of these colleges are very low because they include so many non traditional and non degree seeking students. Some of these schools do not bother to partition these students out of their stats as schools like Harvard, Johns Hopkins and Columbia are meticulous in doing. Not saying that the number is insignificant--it is definitely a flag to tell you that this is NOT a traditional campus with traditional students, for the most part. Something I always weighted heavily. But I have a kid in a school where less than a third of the kids are on campus housing, that has been a suitcase/commuter school that is now trying to transition into a major university, and he is getting what he wants and needs from his particular department. Far more attention than he would have gotten at all but a small number of schools in this country. If you can find a niche like that, it has great value. Particularly for kids who are looking to transfer as their interests develop in areas that their first chosen college does not support. And again, having a decent sized city as part of your campus really can make a difference.</p>
<p>OK, cpt, the question is (#33), after UT, what is the academic pecking order of TX publics? I would say, UTD is actually #1, then UT and TAMU tied for #2 where the choice is made based on style, then Tech, then all the rest are basically indistinguishable. I have a niece who is shocked at how easy Texas State is. SFA is easy. UNT, UTA, etc., all easy. You can learn a lot at all these schools at that level, but it would be really hard to flunk out of one.</p>
<p>Cptofthehouse, I'll address the issue of non-traditional students. Unless, I am misunderstanding the categorization, I assume one might believe that UTSA does have more students that are older or are non-full time. </p>
<p>Well, again, allow me to point in the direction of the many statistics available at the UT system. A reading of the available data will show that, except for UT Austin which has an average of UG students of 21, UTSA has the youngest population. Further, when it comes to the percentage of full time students, again except for UT-Austin, UTSA has the highest percentage of full time students. </p>
<p>Regarding the question of the "pecking order" or schools in the UT system, while there is an amount of individual preferences, an index based on academic strenghts would show UTD and UT Austin on top, followed by UT Arlington and UT Tyler. All the remaining schools (UT Brownsville, UT El Paso, UT Pan American, UT Permian Basin, and UT San Antonio) have SAT averages below 1000, close to 100% admission rates, and bottom ranked graduation rates. The ranking from the bottom up is dependent on which statistic one deems more important.</p>
<p>I'm very excited to be getting such great info! It does appear that there are different views, particularly about UTSA, and I'm glad to have such diverse opinions and facts to consider. The example given about the family with the 3 kids who went to UTSA is very encouraging! And I am very surprised to hear the stats regarding the age of the UTSA students. I mistakenly thought it had a higher percentage of older students.</p>
<p>I'm not surprised to hear about how easy Texas State is. Somehow I knew that and they were never really seriously considered. I thought maybe it was just the reputation, but all I know is that we did not see ANYTHING particularly exciting when looking at their website. It got ruled out really quickly.</p>
<p>My son has excellent, in some ways outstanding, stats when compared to other homeschoolers. But, homeschoolers' stats tend to be different from the conventionally schooled stats, so it's difficult to make an estimate as to how well he will do when compared to other candidates. The UT-A admissions officer told me he could choose whether to apply as a freshman or a transfer, but that he would have a much better chance as a transfer. His stats looked very good as a transfer, since it is based primarily on GPA, and, even though he's supposed to be a senior this year, he has 32 college credits with a 3.8 GPA, whereas his stats look less impressive as a freshman because he doesn't have 15 clubs that he belonged to in high school, and he didn't end world hunger while simultaneously reciting Shakespeare in Japanese.</p>
<p>All facetiousness aside, she seemed to indicate that he does indeed have a very good chance at getting accepted to UT-A, so all of this might be moot. But I want him to have another good in-state backup, and even if UTSA meets his needs, I know that he'd like to live on campus, so that?s why I'm trying to help him choose another Texas school not in SA.</p>
<p>"...he is getting what he wants and needs from his particular department. Far more attention than he would have gotten at all but a small number of schools in this country. If you can find a niche like that, it has great value..."</p>
<p>I am actually questioning whether UTSA might be worth considering to stay at, for this very reason.
The classes would be smaller and he'd get more attention at UTSA. And, if he decided to go into engineering, which is still a possibility, he could easily do so at UTSA, whereas it would be virtually impossible at UT-A. (he doesn?t have the math qualifications yet to get into engineering at UT-A, and transferring later is reportedly difficult. But next year he may be qualified for engineering at UTSA and would have the freedom to explore that option. No such freedom exists at UT-A) Also, he currently has a very good job as a technical consultant, which he'd most likely give up if he moved to Austin. Staying at UTSA would give him the option of taking fewer hours and continuing to work. UTSA is one of very few schools I've seen that allow the student to attend part-time. Since he is already more than a year ahead as far as credits, that might be an appealing option. I'd like to know that staying at UTSA would not be a major mistake. From these posts it does sound like it wouldn't. And, he could always transfer later to UT-Austin and get his degree there. As far as ranking, graduation rates don't really matter, imo, as long as your own kid graduates. Age of students matters, and academics matter, the social scene matters, the size of classes matters, and resources matter.</p>
<p>What are these? SFA,UNT, UTA</p>
<p>SFA = Stephen F Austin (Nacogdoches)</p>
<p>UNT = University of North Texas (Denton)</p>
<p>UTA = University of Texas at Arlington</p>
<p>FYI, UT in Austin is simply UT. UTA is always Arlington. </p>
<p>Maybe someday the UT system will grow into something like the UC system, but there will have to be a lot of redistribution of the Permanent University Fund for that to happen.</p>
<p>UT in Austin used to just be called "The University." Aggies always called it "TU." Then Baylor started calling itself "Thee University." Then UT got all those branches everywhere and we had to be more specific.</p>
<p>Ah, thanks for the clarification. Needless to say, when I mistakenly said 'UT-A' I meant UT Austin.</p>