UNT Undergrad

I have recently auditioned to the UNT School of Music and since it is my dream school, if I get accepted I want to go there over anywhere else. Well, I am just concerned because a lot of my teachers and directors tell me that going to UNT for undergrad isn’t a good idea due to the size of the program and that I might get overshadowed by graduates when it comes to my education. When I went to the audition day seminars it didn’t seem that way at all, but then again they would want to portray their school in the best way possible. I am just wondering if yall have heard or think similar things? Similarly, would being taught by a GA be a reason not to go even though the program is amazing?

OK…one of my favorite issues (said with sarcasm)…

Hopefully @GoForth will respond since he knows about UNT I don’t. So my comments are more general based on my D’s experience choosing and graduating from a big program with grad students.

If you feel that you can discuss this with your teachers/directors, you could ask them why they made these comments about UNT in a sincere way. And then hear them out. Is it a bias they have? Is it based on their college experience and personality? Is it based on other students’ experiences? Or do they say this to everyone as “common wisdom”?

My D’s teachers in high school were really excellent and supportive when looking back. They never indicated a bias toward one school or one type of school. Their comments were very thoughtful to her as an individual. How do you feel about your teachers? Are they thoughtful to you as an individual (which is strange if UNT is important to you)? Or are they repeating “common wisdom” FOR ALL?

It is important questions bc yes, a big program with graduates students can be difficult for certain personalities. However a small program may not have the dynamics you desire…so can you grow there? Graduate students can be a positive or negative. There is some “common wisdom” that says they are “always” a negative. My D’s experience was quite different. It was a positive. Also my D never had a graduate student as a sole professor. She did have grad students do the “lab” portion of a few class…but there still was a professor running the class and doing the lecture portion. Most of the grad students that did this were quite a bit older…maybe 8 - 12 years older. I realize that this is “sold” by some as a very “less than” experience. I also had this experience in college and always felt that these small, lab portion were fun, relaxed and collaborative with a cool instructor that felt slightly closer to your school experience. I often looked up to them as kind of cool (and cute). I found them easy to approach so it never felt “less than” even though people have tried to convince me it was. My D never complained about this (I never asked as I was unconcerned but if something was wrong I’m sure she would have complained to me).

But, back to the point of personality/fit. Are your teachers recommending a smaller program with no graduates students for YOU? Is there something about your learning style that gives them pause about a big program? You should hear them out…but make your own conclusion (with your parents’ input too who know you well).

My D went to a big program with graduates students. No teacher ever suggested that she not go (even though we were aware of the common wisdom). We knew a girl a year later from a different school that went to Michigan. When I heard her choice, I did think…oh no, she should have gone to a smaller program. She seemed to be extremely hard on herself and very sensitive. She lasted one year and dropped out. It wasn’t a good fit. I don’t want to imply that the only reason to go to a small program is bc you are sensitive! But it’s an example of fit that’s easy to understand.

Another reason to go to a small program is finding a great teacher there. Maybe the environment feels more collaborative and you like knowing everyone. That can be a real positive for some. Maybe you don’t want to worry about what an uber singer 10 years your senior is doing…that seems almost unattainable…and may make you seriously question yourself. Maybe you just want to be more focused with a smaller group of people and not distracted. Maybe it would bug you that you can’t be in a main stage shows…even though the opera scenes are stellar and full of underclassmen. Big programs can also feel small (20 vocalists in my D’s class), collaborative (many, varied opportunities ultimately with grad students) and focused (by your teacher)…but there are distractions as you see what others at higher levels are doing. How will those distractions impact you? Do you care or not?

I would however challenge any assertion that you will be ignored, have few opportunities, be over-shadowed…these schools would not continue to attract and graduate great students if that was true. BUT the learning environment is different and you should be honest with yourself. If you always see yourself on top and your ego will take a big hit if you aren’t…a smaller program may be better and give yourself time to develop. I would guess “the ego” portion can be the biggest challenge for kids entering big programs…even ones who don’t think they have an ego. You really do end up at the BOTTOM of what looks like a mountain, but your teacher will help you with that and set realistic expectations for you. Is that OK for you? Is that a motivator or scary or not how you want to learn/be motivated? The decision of fit is very personal. Know thyself.

And if you still have concerns after acceptance…you should have the opportunity to visit, talk with your studio professor and other students about any concerns.

Sorry this is so loooong…but I don’t want you to give up on a good school based on a few comments. I hope this helps you.

I can type more later. My son is a freshman jazz bass. UNT is awesome. There can be a wide spread of talent. If you are at the lowest end, you can chose to feel left out or to drive yourself forward. Always room to grow, and gou can see it in finer increments.

OK. I now have time to type more. What can I say? What would you like to do with your time at a college and after college as it relates to music?

I don’t know ANYTHING about UNT, (so I want to start with being very clear about that) except that it has an excellent reputation as an excellent School of Music! I will play Devil’s Advocate here… I think the presence and strength of Graduate students IS a factor to be considered. First, if several of your mentors have mentioned this to you as a big deterrant, don’t dismiss them out of hand; do your due diligence. The presence of Grad Students is not necessarily a huge negative, but this is very program, instrument, and school dependent.

For instance, perhaps there are 3 main orchestras at a school, and 25 Graduate flute majors, and historically, undergraduates NEVER get placed in these ensembles…worth a second thought if you never get to work with the Amazing Conductor. On the other hand, maybe the School of Music is so giant that they have 10 incredible ensembles? So maybe this IS the best place for you. Also, what if one of the most amazing flute professors teaches at said school? And this is central to what makes the reputation of the program so stellar…ALL her students are AMAZING and you love her! But her studio is capped at 18, and you are not offered a spot; and now you are placed with a Graduate Student; worth a second thought (but maybe only if you have another offer from another school with the guarantee of a “better” teacher). On the other hand, maybe you are one of 2 Undergraduates that the Amazing Teacher has accepted into her studio! Perhaps this is the very best place for you!

I take issue with the idea that wanting an all Undergraduate program is about ego somehow; it is about OPPORTUNITY; focus and opportunity. A program which is all Undergraduate is not necessarily smaller or less competitive! It may or may not be. Once again this is very individual to program, instrument and college (and student!). You have to take each program at its own merits, and this means doing a lot of research and visiting. Educators who focus on Undergraduates tend to be passionate about the age group; and in some cases they focus on building technique, etc… There are no guarantees either way, but I have heard several stories of students at Graduate heavy institutions who got very little attention as Undergrads (note: these particular musicians had fewer options; they didn’t receive lots of admits, and they were likely at the bottom of the totem pole). You have to consider the value of your investment in time and money. I’ve also known excellent students who pursued their Undergraduate studies at historically Graduate heavy programs who got an excellent education, studied with stellar faculty, and did very well professionally after graduating. Please note that there are students in Undergraduate only programs who also aren’t getting as much attention as others, and roles and/or top ensemble placement is not a guarantee. Personally, I think it’s important to lay somewhere in the top third, or sweet spot, of the talent pool at your school (be it Graduate or Undergraduate); this way you can learn much by playing with and listening to more advanced students, and still make the most of the opportunities the program offers.

This is just my two cents! Definitely listen to others (especially those who really know UNT), and do your homework! Ask everyone you know (whose opinions you trust) about this, and specifically for your instrument and UNT!

Edited to add to above ^:
My D is a first year vocalist in a famously Undergraduate only program, and it was a big factor in decision making for her, ALONG with TEACHER, faculty, productions, academic strength, fit, etc… She looked at, and liked, other and even smaller programs with heavy Graduate student presence. One thing is for sure…when looking at faculty, she can be sure she has access to the best conductors, directors, vocal coaches, etc., her school has to offer. And as to primary teacher? She was SURE to know who she would be studying with before accepting any offers.

We also performed a risk assessment of the impact of a key professor leaving/retiring. What value would remain at the school and what need there would be to transfer elsewhere.

If you always see yourself on top and your ego will take a big hit if you aren’t…a smaller program may be better and give yourself time to develop.

Yea, I can see how this comment was read as if you have a big ego go to a small program for success. It’s not exactly what I meant. Honestly if you have a big ego when you enter any music school, you will probably struggle anywhere.

I suspect the ego (averaged-size) takes a hit in the transitions to college at any program as for the first time you are with “like-talent” all day long. I was “speculating” that the transition “could” be easier at a smaller undergrad only program bc you don’t have the distraction of grad students and all their glory. You have a 4 yr mountain to climb to success as opposed to a higher mountain (that you will NOT reach in 4 years…so a big ego will never get to the top). Some kids are very motivated by being able to get to the top. My D had to work through these feelings with her teacher’s help. She had always been able to see the path and push herself to the top. This experience was the primary reason for my comment as a warning about programs with grad students. So she had to re-define the top…as she couldn’t compete with 30 year olds. So if you have a big ego, expect a lot of attn and to get to the top, you may never get what you want or need in a program with grad students. This I know. But I wonder at undergrad only programs if the same student wouldn’t feel “ignored” to a degree too…as I’m sure attn is more shared as talent is more equal (and basically similar to what you’ll find in programs with grad students). I always wonder how difference the experiences really are…

There are dozen of other reasons to choose or not choose a type of program…but I discussed ego as I have more direct experience with that…and saw other kids discuss the effects of grad students…as distractions or motivators - they were distractions and a source of concern initially for my D but turned into supporters and motivators by sophomore year. Hopefully the OP reads all our wonderful comments!

@bridgenail - yes. We have played a guessing game and figure the 4:00 band would be the top for S during undergrad.

Does anyone know roughly how many guitarists are in UNTs jazz program?

@astute12 - I sent that question out to S tonight. My first guess would be 24 because that is about how many jazz basses there are. S also plays currently in the jazz guitar ensemble called the “super 400” in which there are 4 or 5 jazz guitars and drum and bass.

My musician is an undergrad at UNT and really likes it. There was a bit of adjustment of not being the best in the section like in high school, but that can happen at undergrad-only schools too. With grad students, it is less likely that undergrads will make the Wind Symphony or Symphony Orchestra, but there are plenty of other ensembles and indeed music majors are required to be in an ensemble each semester (with a few exceptions). My student has lessons with a professor, not a grad student. It doesn’t feel like undergrads are deprived due to the existence of grad students.

@astute12 - S does not have a count, but feels that they are abundant.

My daughter has UNT as one of her top 2 choices for vocal performance. Her other top choice is DePauw - polar opposite: small, undergrad only program. The choice will probably come down to scholarship offer (assuming she is accepted to both programs. DePauw seems like a sure thing, based on dinner conversation with the head of voice dept.)
At audition weekend, my daughter asked what was the benefit for going to UNT for undergrad instead of waiting for grad school? They said that they were able to do more operas and better operas because of the grad students. All operas are double cast and undergrads get appropriate opportunities. Voice lessons are from professors only. D loves the “music vibe” at UNT - music dorm, tons of performances to watch, many different types of musicians. She likes Denton too. Her biggest reservation is that she is not sure she will be able to do anything but sing - and she wants to continue to play horn in band, audition for a play occasionally, arrange music, etc.