<p>My daughter is interested in languages, study abroad, and possibly majoring in international relations. She wants to play intramural soccer and participate in community service. She does not want a cut-throat competitive environment. </p>
<p>She likes kids who are smart, friendly, down-to-earth, not flaunting expensive clothing and bags (a concern about Penn, where our tour guides wore Chanel sunglasses -- but I realize it is a big enough school that there are probably all kinds of kids there).</p>
<p>She is very social but not a drinker or partier (though I realize this could change in college), does not want a school with social life primarily consisting of fraternity parties (a concern about Penn) and heavy drinking (Hamilton?). </p>
<p>She is comfortable in cities (lived in Brooklyn until her teens), not much of an outdoorsy person. OTOH she doesnt want a school where everyone scatters into the city on the weekends; she wants a school with a strong sense of community and campus-based social life.</p>
<p>Concerns: I have heard both Penn and Tufts described as having a pre-professional feel and wonder if anyone could elaborate. DDs college counselor said Tufts is less intellectual than the Ivies. Hamilton is so in the middle of nowhere and while DDs preference was for a LAC, she is concerned about feeling isolated and the place feeling really small after a couple of years.</p>
<p>I know Tufts is supposed to be very good for Intl. Relations and languages. We toured but I didnt feel like we got a good sense of what it is like or what the kids are like.</p>
<p>Looking at the threads here about housing at Penn, it seems like students main priority is being close to the frats. I dont think that would really be my DDs scene.</p>
<p>Of course we will visit all three again. She was wait-listed by Middlebury and Swarthmore (her favorites after Yale, the dream school) and is trying to decide whether to pursue these or move on with the choices she has now. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>I don’t know why your GC would say Tufts is less intellectual than the Ivies. D1 seriously looked at Tufts and was accepted there. She decided not to go there because it was too intellectual :), and D1 sounds like she is opposite of your D. When we were there for a visit, there were very few kids on the quad, and it was their first spring day. Students at the student union were all very focused on their studies. When D1 slept over, she thought the night life was kind of quiet (school concert, hanging out at the dorm afterwards). Tufts is in a good location - the town is safe, Boston is quick ride away.</p>
<p>If your D doesn’t care for drinking or Greek life, Hamilton and UPenn probably wouldn’t be a good fit.</p>
<p>You should probably pursue one of the waitlists so she has other LAC choices. Middlebury doesn’t have a very pre-professional feel meaning that there are plenty of english, environmental studies, international studies and other majors who don’t necessarily know what job they will have after college. When everyone seems to be headed for business school or medical school, it can be a little daunting for students who just want to explore or select a major that doesn’t have a clear post-graduate path.</p>
<p>1) Wearing Chanel sunglasses is not “flaunting” expensive clothing - it’s just wearing a brand of sunglasses that the wearer likes. It’s not inconsistent with being smart, friendly or down-to-earth. You can tell nothing more about someone who wears Chanel sunglasses other than she likes Chanel sunglasses. </p>
<p>2) Penn gets the pre-professional feel because of Wharton, which is quite silly given that it seems that tons of Ivy League students want to go into professional jobs (most notably i-banking), so what the heck is the difference if you wind up in i-banking with a Wharton business degree or a history degree from Dartmouth.</p>
<p>3) If DD’s college counselor said Tufts is “less intellectual” than the Ivies, then she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.</p>
<p>My son (Penn '10) did not have a social life centered around fraternity parties. He did not pledge, but is VERY social and did spend a lot of time at clubs/bars. As the students get older, most of the social life actually involves going out in the city to restaurants and clubs. Freshman year he felt there was a pretty strong “Wharton is God” vibe, but that really softened as he got more into his major (non-Wharton) and met more people. I also don’t think “living near the frats” is a real issue since most all the housing is fairly close to the frats.<br>
I also agree that Tufts is just fine as far as the intellectual environment.
Furthermore, you will, indeed, find expensive and designer-brand clothing and accessories at Penn and all the rest of these schools, but there are equal amounts of it at state universities!</p>
<p>To me it says, “I have $300 (?) to spend on sunglasses and I want people to know it.” But you’re right, it doesn’t mean the wearer is not smart or friendly. But my DD is not going to fit in at a place where all the girls carry $5,000 handbags and come to early-morning classes fully made-up and blow-dried and perfectly accessorized.</p>
<p>Why would you think the above statement would apply based on ONE guide? That is simply ignorant. Those sunglasses might have actually cost $10 from a street vendor in NYC! </p>
<p>Most of the girls I saw at Penn wore pajama pants and hoodies or fleece jackets and jeans. </p>
<p>It sounds like your daughter’s mother might have a little bit of a chip on her shoulder.</p>
<p>I probably do. I’m a somewhat recent transplant from a kinda-crunchy city neighborhood to an “upscale” suburban area and I get annoyed by the tacky displays of wealth here. So that is my prejudice. But I also know my DD is going to feel more comfortable at a hoodies-and-jeans kind of school. I don’t have enough information about Penn, I know I was overly influenced by the tour guides at every school, and that’s why I’m here asking questions. I picked up the student newspaper at Penn and there were a couple of articles about “that time I got unbelievably drunk” and I was probably overly influenced by that too. It is hard to get a good sense of a place in a couple of hours. That’s why I’m asking.</p>
<p>Well, there is a lot of drinking at Penn. There is a lot of drinking at almost ALL colleges. Your daughter applied to Penn for some reason, and it seems like it might have been a good idea to figure out more about the culture before applying. I don’t think the student body at Penn is significantly different from that at Tufts, in terms of tacky displays of wealth or drinking. I don’t know all that much about Hamilton. There are a lot of wealthy kids at Penn and a lot of kids on substantial need-based scholarships. There is a large Jewish population and a large Asian population. My son had friends of every nationality and from various socio-economic backgrounds. Some of them were so wealthy that it was mind-boggling. One young man sold his first company when he was 19.<br>
I truly think there is more focus on designer goods and being all dressed up at the traditional SEC campuses (‘Bama, Ol’ Miss etc) than at any northeastern school.</p>
<p>Um, okay. I appreciate the information in your responses, I’m not sure why you’re being so snarky though. Maybe you could move on at this point?</p>
<p>Me being snarky? You began by insulting Penn in almost every respect yet it is one of your daughter’s choices. It just strikes me as kind of odd. Chanel sunglasses (real or fake- we don’t know) is “flaunting expensive clothing”. I’m sorry you don’t like your suburb, but don’t take it out on Penn. </p>
<p>I suspect that what has happened here was that Penn got the application as “the token Ivy” and now the prestige-lure is being weighed against the rich, drunken frat kids.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, I had no intention of insulting Penn, I want to love Penn. I was beyond thrilled when she got the decision. I want someone to come along and say, There are all kinds of kids at Penn, and they all drink in moderation, even the rich frat boys and the rich girls in Chanel sunglasses! </p>
<p>I went to Penn State and the party culture there nearly killed me, seriously. Like, I have scars from the accident that I nearly died in. So that is what I am afraid of, that boot-and-rally, date-rapey, vomit-drenched scene of a place like Penn State. I want to hear that Penn kids are too smart to think it would be fun to do ten shots before the tailgate at noon.</p>
<p>Although wild sometimes on weekends, the Ivy League school kids tend to take their studying very seriously, so you won’t see some of the extremes that you have observed at Penn State on a consistent basis.</p>
<p>I think a problem with the choices you have is that your daughter only applied to expensive private schools and those are the kind of places you are going to see Chanel sunglasses. </p>
<p>If you were looking for a school where kids liked to wear hoodies and pajama pants, I would have said a school like Penn State was more likely to have that vibe. </p>
<p>However, given that your D has the choices that she has, I would say let her decide which school has the vibe which she feels most at home with. That’s something only she can decide.</p>
<p>Yes- it is a very different culture from Penn State. Part of that is because the athletic culture is not the same (this could be the biggest understatement ever made). </p>
<p>I was not 100% thrilled with Penn, and have posted accordingly many times. I still have serious concerns about safety. People will tell you how great the Penn security is and how it is “a big city” and “what do you expect”. The fact is, there have been several shootings and violent crimes within a block of the VERY upscale, secured high-rise where my son lived the last two years he was at Penn. Before he was in that safe high-rise, his off-campus (still Penn-patrol area) was burglarized and his laptop was stolen right before finals. There are issues. It is also expensive to live, eat, party there. Philadelphia isn’t as expensive as NYC or Boston, but it still was expensive. My kid is expensive anyway, though. The good news is that there are good off-campus jobs to be had.</p>
<p>I know, I find Philadelphia kind of scary and I lived in NYC for 20 years. My parents live in Philadelphia and both have been mugged; in fact, my mom was mugged and knocked over and injured pretty badly on her front doorstep (not in the neighborhood of Penn but not far from there). My mom actually went to Drexel and my grandmother worked there when I was a kid, and I’ve spent a lot of time in Philadelphia visiting my grandmother when she lived there and then my parents after they moved there, but I don’t like walking around at night; it seems so desolate. Not like NYC where there always seems to be people out and about. I imagine it is more active around the campus, however.</p>
<p>^^^^simpkin, geesh, well after observing this lack of safety in the Penn area and feeling this way, it appears that Hamilton might be a better suited college for your daughter…</p>