Upper Middle Class Frustration

Market price is an interesting subject. If Ivys or likes will double the price of attendance, there still be a line of very wealthy parents who would happily pay double tuition. Some private schools do take advantage of upper / middle class parents. I can’t understand how Harvard and MIT education at 62K per year can cost less then Santa Clara University at 64K or USC California at 72K.

They do, because they can. CA has, or at least had, the best public universities in the country, but with “holistic” approach they became very difficult to get into for high achieving white non-hooked applicants. And if their parents don’t want to send kids to Canada or UK, they will pay premium to keep them close to home.

“This is more of a lament about the way we have all been manipulated by very wealthy, private institutions that are somewhat disingenuous about the way they manage their finances”

I love when they say they meet full need… of course they don’t define what that is.

@ClassicRockerDad - With all due respect, I disagree with your entire post from top to bottom.

These private schools are not-for-profits that enjoy vast financial support from the government and society. The tax benefits and research grants these high-endowment private schools enjoy far outstrip the financial support that typical public colleges enjoy. Why should the government be giving top private schools $41,000 per student in subsidies when most public schools are lucky to get a small fraction of that?

Why should an upper middle-class family be asked to pay $250,000 in tuition and living expenses for an institution whose endowment is sufficient to afford free tuition to all of its students?

Why should people be forced to pay tuition that, after adjusting for inflation, is between two to three times as expensive as it was two generations ago for a product whose relative value has eroded over time?

The current higher education system in this country is broken.

Some states are better with affordable and nice selection/choices of in-state public colleges, some not. Some states are much higher with taxes, etc.

Many times, one gets firmly rooted with career, home, etc, and then they get thrown for a loop with the college scenario.

When H and I went to college, the price tag between our in-state privates (we both attended different schools in Milwaukee, as WI residents) were not much more for tuition than in-state flagship (U of WI/Madison). We both finished degrees on time and had decent pay (BSN, and engineer). H’s parents were willing to live very frugal for their childrens’ college education - and H did have student loans, and qualified for state and federal grants. We have friends that graduated from U WI with those degrees at the time - but the flagship was a tricky place to navigate when you were from small towns and largest town in the county (H 6,000; me, 10,000). Brother was poorly advised at U WI and had to take an extra semester to finish his engineering degree.

As parents now, we now could not afford the tuition at our private colleges for our children (w/o damaging our retirement assets substantially), or the private schools in our current area. Interestingly, one DD will graduate in engineering, and one DD is a BSN - graduated and working as a RN. Both with scholarships from in-state Universities which provided excellent education - but we are in a great state for both low cost of living and very good state University options for the degrees DDs pursued.

Key in this ‘new’ paradigm is for parents and students to be educated about the process, hopefully before student is starting HS - see what is happening with the students years ahead of your own; talk to family/friends/college students.

Students seem to need to be a whole lot more sophisticated earlier and earlier in life.

I suspect some of the anger, frustration is also built up because of life in stressful environments - crime, traffic, high cost of living w/o paychecks seeming to cover everything well…

Also expectations.

IMHO there are a lot of highly qualified foreign students that wish they had the options we in the US have.

Do parents have a harder time telling their kids, “no,” these days?

Are there too many entitled kids, backed up by ever-praising parents, who think their “hard work” means that they must go to a $65k+ per year school?

It saddens me to see parents and kids bankrupting themselves with huge loans, second mortgages, under-funded retirements. What will these people do if they suddenly have to retire earlier than planned, lose their jobs, or their child can’t make the loan payments on a co-signed big loan?

We’ve had several family members who’ve had to retire 5-15 years earlier than planned. Companies down-sized and they’re at an age/income where they’re not appealing to other employers…so retirement is imminent, ready or not.

Seriously, are there too many parents out there that can’t bare to tell their kids, “no”?

No one needs to go to a pricey school. If you can’t afford a Mercedes, then look at the Toyotas, Fords, and others.

@Zinhead , if you’re counting research grants for privates, you need to count them for publics as well.

And a college would have to have a million in endowment per student if the entire endowment went to pay for tuition and NOTHING else.
Here’s the list: https://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/college-rankings/details/EndowmentPerStudent
HYPSM + WASP + Grinnell + Olin + Soka can afford to be tuition-free (Caltech just barely misses the cut) in an unrealistic pie-in-the-sky world.

Even if 2/3rds of endowment earnings went to fund tuition for all students, only HYP, maybe S, and Soka can afford to do so.

Devote half of endowment earnings to fund all tuition costs, and only Princeton and Soka could afford to do so.

  1. Research grants are payments for services rendered and are competitively awarded. They are not gifts. Research is a public good. Some public schools get plenty too.
  2. Not for profits have to work in the public interest to retain their tax exemptions. These private universities, by providing financial aid, do so.

That $41K number is bogus if you remove research grants.

The problem with our country is that everybody thinks that someone else should pay for things.

“Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country” - JFK

Why the focus on white students? Some CA publics are quite selective for all students (and they do not consider race or ethnicity), so it is not a situation unique to white students.

However, unlike some states like PA, the less selective CA publics are better provisioned with academic programs. For example, a CA student can study engineering at CSUs in Los Angeles, Fresno, Chico, Northridge, and Sacramento, among others, while a PA student would have a hard time finding engineering at PASSHE schools.

I mentioned Middlebury because you said that it was a school that was “‘discounting’ heavily for the groups they want to admit.” I’m assuming that you mean some kind of discounting other than need-based aid, and I’m hoping that you can elaborate. I’m not aware of any kind of discounting that Middlebury does other than need-based aid.

You may not have heard of Middlebury back in the 80s, but it wasn’t an unheard of school. There were rankings back then, and the school was probably regularly ranked in the top 15 or 20 national liberal arts colleges.

Well, CSS/Profile used by many schools is specifically used to decide who gets how much aid, and I don’t begrudge these schools the right to “manipulate” their formulas do determine how their own money is distributed, as long as the criteria is based on financial need. If you think this manipulation is based on something other than financial need (you know, to “get the groups they want to admit”), please elaborate.

Upper middle class families can’t afford $70k private colleges.
Lower class families can’t afford their local state directional. (In my state, tuition is $11k+ alone at directionals. $20k+ if you include R&B since MANY cannot commute to a directional here in MI.)

I have sympathy for the family that can’t afford anything. My sympathy is lost on those who can’t afford every single thing they want, especially because they’ve chosen to put other wants ahead of a private education.

Re #28

Some schools practice “preferential packaging” of nominally need based financial aid, instead of offering explicit merit scholarships. No idea if Middlebury does this.

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Like you, I grew up and spent most of my life in the NE so I know where you are coming from. In the wealthier areas there is a strong anti public school vibe. A large part of that is a status thing. No want to brag about going to a public school. It was all about the Ivy league, MIT, and other elite NE colleges. Bottom line, the public schools were not valued and supported.

I have since moved south where public education is valued and heavy supported. Kids actually dream of going to the state flagship. Many never even consider private schools since our state has a great flagship. We take great pride in our public schools. We also have many elite private college but most can’t afford them.

However, I feel that you are missing one point. Education is a business. They must cover their costs. Private school have a much smaller base to spread the fixed cost around. A 5,0000 student school has many of the same costs as a 25,000 student public. Most colleges are not ripping you off. They are trying to survive and cover their costs. I agree totally about the value of the education for what they charge. The cost of living in the NE also applies to schools. For many schools, tuition does not cover the full cost. Part of the cost is covered by endowments and other sources. Schools provide a lot more services today then when you went to school. A lot of this is driven by demands of the students and parents. They want diversity (economic and geographic), tutoring centers, well staffed heath centers, well equipped labs, computer centers, fancy gyms, nice dorms, great food options, great student centers and so on. Guess what, that cost money.

The school I went in the late 70s on the NE is a very different school today. They had a massive building campaign. New technology centers, new large athletic complex with a small stadium, a new state of the art gym with an olympic sized pool, new dorms with all the bells and whistles, new performing arts center, and one of the highest paid presidents in the US. And that just the start. No wonder the tuition is no longer 4,300 a year?

@romanigypsyeyes views are the exact same as mine. There is no need to go to a hugely expensive private college when there are much more affordable public schools in state. In all honestly I go to a very expensive private school but on a large merit scholarship, if I had not gotten this scholarship I would probably be at one of my state’s public universities right now. My family is upper middle class, but we don’t throw away money on expensive things, although we do indulge in at least two nice vacations a year. I feel terrible for the student who cannot afford public universities nowadays, so when students with lower income backgrounds get into expensive privates with scholarships I think they should be applauded for putting in the effort to get to where they are. Some people don’t appreciate what they have anymore, especially portions of the upper middle class.

As someone who also lives in NE, I take offense to the flippant response of “vote with your feet and leave.” Such a mis-informed reply. There are many situations where you can’t leave–such as the fact that your home value has decreased to such a degree that you will take a substantial loss on any sale; perhaps you have some parental and/or elderly care issues, perhaps-God forbid–your job keeps you there. That’s the same logic that says “move to another state that accepts your pre-existing cancer diagnosis” if you don’t like our new health care reform.

It’s just not as simple as some of you make it out. The fact that in the current college system, you are expected to devote 47% of your income to fund college attendance is just silly in every sense of the word. IMO, there’s not a college education in the world worth 1/2 of my HHI.

We have been saving since the kids were little. Slow and steady saving beats house hold income.

We voted with our feet and left because it was ridiculous to pay twice as much for a house.

@BelknapPoint Hi.

My intention is not to denigrate Middlebury. It seems like a lovely school. I use it only as an example of the type of school that a good, but not exceptional Northeast student had a reasonable expectation of attending and affording in 1982.

As for the CSS issue, it is part of the larger “holistic” admission, and general lack of transparency issue that permeates the higher education system ( primarily private, but also in California, apparently, and maybe some other states). This lack of transparency makes it very difficult to determine what, exactly, the schools are doing financially, how they make admission and pricing decisions.

There is a tendency on this site to view the sticker price as “the price” and to view “financial aid” as a form of charity. I look at it differently. These schools are choosing to set different prices for different customers, depending upon criteria which are less than clear. The government required the use of “net price calculators” to try to help people to determine what price they are likely to be charged, but schools are free to set their own formulas and to make changes to the formulas based on their institutional priorities and needs. We really don’t know what goes into their pricing decisions.

Anyway, I assure you that my comments about Middlebury had no hidden meaning. If you like, substitute “Bates” or “Colby” or “Holy Cross” or “Generic Private College” for Middlebury.

What I was trying to get at, apparently clumsily, was that no one really knows how or why the private colleges choose their students and how or why they come up with their formulas for financial aid.

We do know that schools that are allegedly “need blind” somehow come up with remarkably stable percentages of full pay and financial aid students every year. A skeptical person might suggest that the schools are not as “need blind” as they hold themselves out to be.

Harvard, for example, defines “need” in a much more generous fashion than most of the private schools in the country. This ought to result in a much higher percentage of students receiving aid than at, say, Middlebury, right? Yet, year after year, we see a remarkably consistent percentage of Harvard students who receive Pell Grants, Harvard students that receive aid, and Harvard students that are full pay. How can that be? Could it be that these schools may be stretching the truth a bit when they market themselves as high minded purveyors of idealism and social progress? Could it be that they are self-interested entities just like everybody else in the world?

These are Private schools, and they are entitled to engage in whatever degree of “Holistic” theater they wish, but I grow impatient supporting their activities with public tax breaks and with facilitating the influx of vast sums of money into their coffers through the maintenance of tax deductions for the contributors.

I also am entitled to my feelings of frustration and disappointment with the situation. By the way, I do indeed know how to say “no” to my kids and do it frequently. It helps that we communicate freely and they understand the current college landscape quite well.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no preferential packaging at Middlebury, but I’m willing to consider a different viewpoint. I don’t think that the FA office at Middlebury sees anything except the FAFSA and Profile information. While some characteristics other than financial can be determined about the applicant and his/her family from these documents, I have not heard of non-financial characteristics being used at Middlebury to award aid that is supposedly need-based.

Life is full of tradeoffs. Tell your kid who is unhappy at going to Rutgers (wherever), “We could have moved to a different part of the country where the state universities are better, but we prioritized staying near Grandma and Grandpa. Can you understand this?” Any kid who rails against this should be ashamed.

slow and steady does beat HHI IF you have the slow and steady option–see sometimes life gets in the way. You can slice it however you want, but nobody will ever convince me that once HHI is over $140K that 1/2 of it should go towards funding a year of college…there’s no scenario in the world where that’s logical.

Then don’t buy it. There are great universities that cost much less.