Upper Middle Class Frustration

Paying for College
421

“I come back to this: I don’t know OP or what she values about schools, so I am not going to make any assumptions in that regard. But, it is clear OP wants the education she thinks is best for her child, has come to the realization that she can’t provide it for whatever reason, and is obviously upset about that. I think the kind and decent thing to do is to be sympathetic as she grieves the inability to provide her child with what she thinks is best for that child, and to hope she can come to terms with whatever she decides to do about the situation in which she now finds herself. 99% of the time, these things work out, and maybe she will realize that down the road.”

WUSTL- where you are losing us is that the OP CAN provide it- but chooses not to. And of course that’s a choice that folks make. I guess I could have afforded to send my kids to sleepaway camp, sports lessons, music lessons. But I chose not to- I put that money into their college funds. I don’t get to complain that music lessons have been priced way above the means of most people in America- piano teachers have a right to make a living, and I have a right to choose not to spend my money in that way.

There are two elements that are undercutting your very kind and sensitive argument here.

1- OP admits that the money is there- they’ve saved it, it’s available. But they would feel the pain writing those checks. Yes- like 99% of America, there would be pain. But unlike a very high percentage of Americans who DON’T have the money- this family does.

2- OP’s argument rests upon denigrating the more affordable options they have. As if Colby has a lock on intellectual rigor over Binghamton. And the rest of us are calling hogwash on that argument.

See? this isn’t a family who has come to realization that their kid can’t afford to get a degree. Much more complicated than that…

422

This is what I find sad. I think you will still be able to find schools where your kids can have great learning experiences, have their eyes opened and views broadened, be able to explore learning for learning’s sake, have that broad intellectual experience at a more affordable cost. There are small lacs that still give merit, there just may not be many of them in NE, but even there there are some. I get that you want your kids to go to the schools you have nostalgia for close to home and where you and your friends went to school but you are fortunate that your kids can still have that same kind of experience at those same kinds of schools, just maybe not those same exact schools. There are lots of great schools that have gorgeous campuses, great professors, great peers all across the country and that offer merit to high stats students. I get not wanting to pay the full exorbitant cost for some of these schools. We briefly entertained the possibility of sending our kids to some of those same schools but quickly realized they were above our budget. My D had very high stats that put her in the top percentages of the non prestigious LAC she attends. Nonetheless she has felt very challenged, has met lots of other high achieving, ambitious, curious, interesting classmates and had great opportunities. She has been drawn to take classes in subjects that have opened her eyes to new ideas, has discovered authors she never heard of before, she has heard awesome renowned speakers that have been brought to campus and on and on. I really hope your kids find a great school where they can have “the full college experience” and don’t carry along your attitude that they are just grinding through another four years of workplace preparation.

423

@PurpleTitan and @blossom I don’t think it’s for any of the rest of us to decide what provides the best education for another family’s student. If you think you can evaluate colleges in a “purely educational” way that makes objective sense to you, that’s fine for you. But that gets back to my point: What constitutes “education” is going to be different for everyone because it depends on what each family thinks comprises an “education.” Some families would look beyond the ACT scores of the student body or the fact that X major is available at Y college and look at a whole host of other things. To me, “education” encompasses a lot of other things - including social factors (exposure to people who think differently than you do, exposure to people who have different experiences than you do, exposure to people both higher and lower on the socioeconomic totem pole than you are, etc.) I also consider extracurricular activities, the opportunity to hear speakers, the ability to have meaningful conversations with professors, and many other things to be part of the learning process. Others can define it however they think appropriate, and the fact that everyone defines “education” differently explains why I might value this school for that reason and someone else might value that school for a different reason.

I also don’t think it’s for any of the rest of us to decide what another family can “afford.” If a family’s assets can be liquidated, and if those assets together with the family’s borrowing capabilities will yield an amount equal to or greater than COA at whatever college they think is best for their kids, and if college is the only expense they have to consider, then I guess college is technically affordable for that family. That’s a lot of “ifs,” the most important one of which is probably whether or not college is the only expense the family has to consider, and I think you will be hard-pressed to find any family where affording college is the only concern. How many working years they have left, risk of unemployment or death or disability occurring during those working years, amount of assets left over after paying for college, number of kids in the family, health concerns, need to contribute to the care of elderly parents, and lots of other factors to consider. It’s an individual family decision, and it’s awfully presumptuous to conclude based on what little we know about another family that they can “afford” college.

Of course there are many others who have it more difficult than an UMC family when it comes to paying for college. That is no comfort to a member of the UMC who concludes they can’t afford to the education they deem best for their children. The remarkable thing about sympathy is that it isn’t finite. It is possible to sympathize with both the low income and the UMC.

424

“Of course there are many others who have it more difficult than an UMC family when it comes to paying for college. That is no comfort to a member of the UMC who concludes they can’t afford to the education they deem best for their children.”

It would hopefully give them perspective, however. Almost nobody in the world can get “the best”, but how many UMC realize how good they have it compared to 99% of the world population?

“The remarkable thing about sympathy is that it isn’t finite. It is possible to sympathize with both the low income and the UMC.”

Yes, but I would have a lot more sympathy for someone going without food every night than someone who thinks their favorite restaurants and too overpriced and hard to get reservations at. And if you have the same amount of sympathy for both situations, then I’m flabbergasted.

425

It’s useless to pine for things you can’t have. Or more accurately, things you CAN have, but you refuse to pay the price for it. I would love to have a BMW or Mercedes (which I can definitely afford), but refuse to pay for the ‘prestige’ and the additional cost of ownership. I’m perfectly happy with my Toyota.

426

As a ‘doughnut family’ is that the right term, I will never spend $250k on an undergraduate education from anywhere, which is expected of me by many private US colleges and even out of state publics. As some folks have pointed out there are cheaper alternatives of which I am fully aware, but to the good folks who suggested North Dakota, Wyoming or a state directional, if the choice is attending a world class university in a European capital such as Dublin, London or Edinburgh for the same price, the US alternatives in the majority of cases will come second. Anecdotally, in observing the matriculation from my D’s own school what stared out as a drip, maybe 1 kid every 2 years a decade ago, is now a trickle at least 2-3 per year go abroad, and this applies to comparable high schools in area as well. It will never be a flood, but if the price gap continues to widen it is likely more and more US kids will choose foreign schools in the future.

427

@Quietlylurking
I agree with you that there should be no place on CC for insults, bullying, put-downs etc., and am sorry that you feel this is happening a bit to you. But I want to point out that some of your comments so seem to put down those who are full pay - whether they be easily fully pay or scrapping and saving full pay. You have the opinion that colleges are not worth the sticker price. You have the right to that opinion and many agree with you. But some do not agree with you, so when you paint them with a broad brush and say they are part of the problem, is that not a put-down? I think @wustl93 said it beautifully about how different people place values on different things. There are current threads here about hair dryers and hand bags which in a small way are similar to this - some people think the $200 hair dryer is a value, some think even though they can afford the $2,500 Prada bag, they prefer the Coach bag as it delivers the same functionality and they save the difference.

There is a difference between Can’t pay and Don’t want to pay. There is a difference between Can’t pay and Can pay but don’t think it is worth the price. If you don’t think the value is there for you, that doesn’t mean the value is not there for others.

And on the subject of Middlebury - I’m sure your kids are bright high stats kids, but with a 19% admit rate, that means for even the best and brightest kids, they likely will not have that school as a choice.

On the topic of expanding merit - I wish more schools, would offer more merit, but for the top top schools, many of which are in the NE like Williams and Amherst, and where the avg test scores are very high, who do they offer merit to? The 35’s and 36’s. It gets hard to justify that that the 35 kid is more merit-worthy than the merely avg 34

428

Not all top schools have the pristine dorms and manicured lawns, certainly not gourmet food. And after the much earlier comment about elites wasting money on climbing walls, I went looking. On one site, the contractor is bragging about a list that’s almost entirely state schools. Ymmv.

I’ve now caught up with this whole thread and I can see the pinch OP mentions. And I think (this is just this, I have other thoughts, as well, ) that much is made of telling others to reach down the list. And yet, so many of us, admit it or not, do go looking for what we see as a more optimum “fit.”

Of course, fit can be achieved in many places. But not everyone wants to run all over the country to find it. That should, imo, be acknowledged.

But nor do I see this as a NE problem. Most of the kids in our good private hs went off to lesser known colleges, the sort you have to look up, to know what state. Plenty went off to a NE public.

429

If U Pitt, Juniata, Rutgers, Binghamton and Muhlenberg represent “running all over the country” for a family in the Northeast… where rural Maine is not seen as inconvenient- boy, I’m using the wrong map.

430

Those are closer examples. Drive-able.

Seriously, the kids from our hs were off to many schools below first or second tier. But not WY or a FL public. And not all kids, as pointed out, are going to get merit.

431

@PurpleTitan The last paragraph of Post # 423 is an example of why these discussions tend to go downhill so quickly. We were having a pretty civil exchange (or at least I thought so) up til then, and now you are making an awful lot of assumptions about me, and an awful lot of generalizations about low income people and about UMC, all wrapped up into one.

All I said was it was possible to have sympathy for both situations. You are reading far too much into my post to assume that I have the same amount of sympathy for both situations. To a larger point, it’s not for you to decide how much sympathy I should have for one situation relative to the other anyway. I am getting the impression you believe you are entitled to decide how other people should think and feel.

I am not going to get into the weeds with you about how many low income people “go without food every night” or how often that happens or why it happens, nor am I going to address what you are implying about the values of the UMC vis a vis overpriced restaurants.

Peace to all. I am out.

432

@Quietlylurking

I get where you are coming from. My kid will be attending a selective LAC in the Midwest where a merit scholarship brought her costs down by 35-40% Even so, her education will cost more than the list price of our home that took twenty years to pay off. And then we’ll likely pay the same or more for kid #2 in four years. It’s a lot of money and the prospect of paying it is daunting.

I also get your desire for your kid to have a “life of the mind” educational experience that goes beyond professional training for a specific career.

Rest assured, there are many smart, hard-working, intellectually curious kids from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds who are priced out of the elites for one reason or another. They go elsewhere for reasons of cost, or because in an increasingly selective landscape, they weren’t admitted. As others have mentioned, these worthy young people enroll at honors colleges at public universities or go out of region to colleges and universities where merit scholarships are still attainable or acceptance rates are slightly higher. Your kids will find those kids and they’ll have a great learning journey together! It’s just likely to be at a place with less name recognition and/or at some distance from your home.

433

This is an interesting thread. It has touched on so many topics/issues…the escalating cost of higher education, prestige/rankings, rising academic pressure, the ‘college experience’, merit aid, etc.

I’m not from the NE but I do live in an UMC community. I understand the OP’s feelings. I know many UMC people who are also frustrated…however, for my friends, it’s the cost of Northwestern and Notre Dame. They are hard working, involved in the community and all-around nice people. I understand how they feel when they realize the financial impact of being a full-pay student. I understand their sadness at the thought of disappointing their hard-working children.

I also understand all the posters who have responded with what I call “the mirror”…in other words, a reality check. People in our situation are fortunate to have choices. It’s much better than the alternative. And as crappy as the current higher education landscape may appear, it is what it is…for now.

I agree with wustl93 when it comes to values. I have read many threads where I struggle to understand why a poster places such a high value on a certain criteria. I read it, spend a little time thinking about it and then say to myself, ‘to each his own’. Reading posts from those familiar with the schools in the OP’s region, perhaps it’s time to re-examine why you value certain schools the way you do. I’m not saying how you feel isn’t valid, but I think most of us can benefit from self-reflection.

My other suggestion for the OP, take it or leave it, is to use this as a teaching moment for your child. Channel the anger from the first post in a constructive manner. (Empathy from a bunch of strangers on a message board does diddly…why seek it?)

I would openly talk with my child about how higher education has changed. Talk about how your expectations unfortunately veered from reality.

There are so many talking points you can use from this thread. Explain that in hindsight you could have made different choices…like moved to a lower ‘cost of living’ area…but life is a series of trade-offs. You made choices the best you could at the time. More importantly, you are still trying to do the best you can in the current higher education landscape. Being an adult means making tough decisions.

Model the behavior you want your child to display when faced with disappointment. Acknowledge your anger, but don’t let it dominate the conversation. Focus instead on the positive. Find ‘an acceptably affordable to you’ school where your child can thrive. Not attending one of the schools you listed may be the best thing for your child’s future happiness. I wish you well.

434

@elguapo1: I do agree that there are fine options overseas, but I also don’t want people to get the wrong impression, so I want to reiterate that

  1. Merit money exists in the US (pretty much non-existent in the UK).
  2. Many schools (especially publics) are pretty generous with giving credit for AP/IB/A-Level scores that may allow you to knock a year (or more) off.

3 years at UW-Madison/UMich/Cal/UCLA runs about $150K-$185K.

That’s about the same for 3 years in the most expensive subjects at Oxbridge or 4 years at Scottish unis and other 4-year UK programs (roughly $150K).

435

And with the European colleges - they look like a bargain right now because the dollar is strong but currencies fluctuate. Can you still afford it if the pound or euro strengthens by 20 cents in two years? I would move a ton of money there now as a buffer.

436

@wustl93: I didn’t assume you had the same amount of sympathy for both. There was an “if” in there.

“To a larger point, it’s not for you to decide how much sympathy I should have for one situation relative to the other anyway.”

But I can certainly make a judgement about how much perspective you have based on where your sympathies like.

437

I was trying to write a gentle, rational post about why the OP might have rubbed some people the wrong way but I’m giving up. After rereading the OP here’s my honest opinion.

The OP oozes privilege. They expect someone else (and that’s what FA is, someone else paying) to pay part of the cost of their kid’s college simply because it’s expensive and inconvenient. They complain about living in a high COL area, one that has some of the best public high schools systems in the nation, among other amenities. They whine about not being able to send their kids to certain schools while at the same time accusing those schools of chicanery. They had the privilege to attend a school on the order of Middlebury or Tufts, but complain that because the doors have been opened to more than the narrow slice of America that used to be able to attend such schools that they and their children are somehow being cheated.

Yes, your kids may not be admitted to the school you went to. Big deal. College is a whole lot more competitive these days than it used to be. My father, a C student in his day, went to Williams. Despite the fact that he’s a major donor and very involved in the school his grandchild, a much, much better student, was denied. Said kid is thriving at Oberlin. His sister went to Dickinson and is happily employed in her field of study. Not going to Williams has not cost them in any way.

College is expensive. Too expensive. I get it. Raging on the internet and implying that people who send their kids to the schools you covet are idiots is not productive.

My advice is to get over yourself. Send your kid to one of the many excellent schools people here are recommending and don’t look back. No one but you will judge you or your child.

438

This is an interesting thread…if for nothing more than on every page people go back to the OP…so here goes another…

In the “good ole days”, which cell phone company did you use? Which Wal-mart was your favorite? Did you drink carmel or vanilla macchiato? The world you entered in college is dead, along with MaBell, the local hardware store, and the family owned restaurant.

Remember the kids in 3rd grade that got picked last for kickball? They are running the place. Along the way they made so much money that soon everyone thought they should have an SUV, a vacation home, a Prada bag, and I iPhone 8 (I hear folks are already outside the apple store). Status became a source of competition instead of accomplishment. Everybody wants it, especially for their kids. Everyone gets a trophy (that was during our watch…our parents laugh at us).

The final exam on parenting is where your kid goes to college. This website is built on finding ways to win your last game as a parent. Don’t hate the players…hate the game.

There is no way to know the value of an education in 20 or 30 years, just like had I known I would spend 12 hours a day typing when I was in high school I’d have taken typing instead of wood shop. All you can do now is hedge the future, and the analytics confirm that college is a worthwhile investment. Whether you buy Hermes or Coach (at your income there are no “house brands”) all of the bags are expensive. The suggestion on this site is that in the Coach bag there is a $1M gift certificate; the Hermes bag has a one that might be $500k…but it might be $10M. No way to know.

Your free not to shop, but if you do decide to head to the mall (or your laptop) don’t complain about the prices…just shop within your budget and priorities. Why be angry…you’re the one making the buying decision. Market price for Hermes bags is very steep.

I’m more angry that I have to pay an AMT that hasn’t been indexed for COL or inflation than I am deciding to hedge an amazing amount of money on my children. I chose what to invest in my kids…AMT is indiscriminately applied regardless of tons of factors (including the cost of Hermes!).

439

I have not read all the posts, but the only part of the OP’s statement that I agree with is that states should do a better job of funding their public universities. Not so upper middle class kids can go to a great state flagship at an affordable cost, but so the children of truly middle class families can afford to attend.

I am close friends with a Massachusetts family of two teachers with three kids. They could not afford to send their smart, talented, hard working daughter to their state flagship, to which she earned admission and their tax dollars support. Yes, they found an affordable option, and their daughter is contributing to the academic and campus life of a lower ranked school in a neighboring state. But there is irony in that a family that has devoted their careers to teaching other people’s kids is not able to afford public higher education in their own state.

NY is taking the right steps to make public higher ed affordable for all.

440

Re: “mourn the loss of the days when we had temples of learning… now just workplace preparation.” I hope you are just venting here and not sabotaging your children’s college experience. If your kids went to your public option (and based on your high COL I am assuming UMass unless you’re in Greenwich and you’re whinging about UConn), they would just be one of many high stats kids. No more special than the kid sitting next to them in honors class. I really hope this is venting and this air of superiority is put aside in real life. So if you kid went to UMass, she could take courses at Smith and Amherst, etc. through the five colleges consortium. She could go anywhere in the US, Canada, Guam, Puerto Rico or US Virgin Islands on the National Student Exchange. She could spend a year studying abroad in Europe. It is a school that is well respected nationally and even internationally. Everywhere except Massachusetts. This “just prepping to be a workplace drudgery” is a bit too much.