Maybe not sympathy, but I think there should be respect and understanding for the people who do it in really tough ways. I think, specifically here on CC, some prolific posters don’t have personal familiarity with people who aren’t educated and thus live very different lives and come to the college admissions process without the advantages of personal knowledge.
@zoosermom , I think that the hypothetical family you describe above has the cultural markers of “lower middle class” or more accurately, blue collar, but they are not economically lower middle class at that salary. And this thread has been about economic slots, not cultural ones.
But to your later comment, about a lot of people here not knowing people, or not having close family, who lack college education, I think that is undoubtedly true. There’s a lot of social stratification in terms of locality in our country, absolutely. Being the only sib in my family with a college degree, and living in a largely blue collar town, I think I’ve mostly avoided that NE bubble that has been discussed all over this thread.
I respectfully disagree. I think class and income are very different things. Class and life experience absolutely impacts economics, particularly with regard to college. It is hard, even if you have some income, to navigate the college process for the first time in a particular family. Really hard. People, no matter what the income, who have higher education experience are, I think, much better off in navigating the process than first time families.
I think that the choices for the families (and there are a lot, particularly among the immigrant community that I teach literacy to) to work themselves insanely hard to get up to the income that makes a college education possible should be respected. I don’t know how the OP makes her money, or if she has made terrible choices along the way. It’s hard to tell. We have a friend (also a garbage man) whose kid goes to one of those tippity top schools with no aid. The father works two very physical jobs and the mother works two jobs, as well. They are doing it, the kid is having an amazing experience and killing it academically. They have the income that they do, not because they have fancy careers, but because they realized during the high school admission process that their child had some real potential and kicked it into high gear in a way that many, many parents here on CC would never conceive of doing. Neither of the parents has any higher education. If you look at this family’s income, it’s very high, but they know that if dad gets injured, their gamble on reaching for something better for their kid will fail. Should they have not gotten above themselves by reaching? Should people who were able to do nothing more than put food on the table most of their lives, have known that colleges expect them to pay some out of savings, some out of current income and some out of future earnings if no one they ever knew personally went to college? No idea. I think they should have done everything possible to get their child that education, but the numbers on a piece of paper on a particular day don’t tell the entire story of anything. We are in the same boat. If my husband falls off the truck and gets grounded, we are in big, big trouble with tuition payments after the next two semesters. I would still take the risk, because if we can keep hubby healthy, our kid will have an education no one can ever take away from him.
Zooser- not taking anything away from you or your family at all.
But anyone can become disabled. My neighbor with ALS (and three young kids)- his disability payments don’t cover even one day of the nursing care he requires to maintain his breathing and eating, let alone cover a mortgage or college or food. A friend with MS- had to downshift careers radically because the constant travel and physical demands (not blue collar work, but still physical- and constant jet lag was screwing up the medication cycles) made the chosen career impossible.
I do agree with you 100% that a first gen student faces challenges- financial, cultural, sociological- that most UMC families cannot understand at all. I’ve met kids who have degrees in architectural studies from a local directional college (to which they commuted while working) who discover when they graduate that to become an architect in the US requires a Master’s degree. You may call hogwash- it’s on the student to figure that out, how could they not know it, who gets an undergrad degree in something requiring a Masters? but it happens. So the kids get jobs at a construction company essentially doing a CAD/CAM position which they could have done with an associates degree in construction management from the local community college. Master’s is WAY out in the future once the loans get paid.
Same story with social work. If you are the only white collar trajectory worker in your family (and born in the US while the rest of the family is not) who is going to tell you that without a Masters degree you can get a job as a counselor at a women’s shelter, or an aide at an agency which works with the homeless- but NOT a job as a social worker? You may ask what’s the difference- well, in my part of the country, the differential is about 20K in the first year, that’s what.
UMC families ignore the vast piles of social capital that goes with having gone to college, navigating among other UMC people for some or all or even just the most recent part of their lives.
My company used to book plane tickets and hotel rooms for college seniors who were traveling for job interviews with us. We’d reimburse students for their other expenses when they showed up for an interview day. Then we learned about the kids who WEREN’T interviewing with us- it can cost $50 to get to the airport from some campuses, another $20 to get from the airport to the hotel, etc.
So we send preloaded gift cards to cover incidentals. Who knew? We found out but it’s a sad commentary on the bubble that some of us lived in. Not every kid can ask mom for a spare $100 each time they’ve got an interview. And if their own job earnings have been earmarked for tuition and books- they simply don’t have the cash.
Exactly right, anyone can. But what I’m saying is that there are some people who inflate their income (I know a lot of immigrants who drive cabs/ubers overnight specifically for college or medical school) by doing things that many people on CC who judge income solely by the number on a page, would never do. I’m not saying other people don’t have it hard or make difficult choices. I’m just saying that I find it a bit sanctimonious to be so callous and judgmental without knowing others’ situations. That’s all.
When I was growing up (not in the rural midwest), a student in geometry in 7th grade would be considered the top student in math who needs no help in math (and may be asked for help by other students).
True.
However, spending to acquire the visible expensive status symbols or luxury goods associated with a “higher” social class may be a big factor in making one financially worse off for a given income level.
Or it might not. You don’t know. They could be making $80,000 on two incomes, then add two second jobs to bring it up to $140,000 and spending the absolutely bare minimum so they can have that money for college.
I’m not sure anyone has mentioned that some NE public universities have cross-registration agreements with elite private colleges such as the Amherst 5 College Consortium. That way an UMC student would not be “deprived” of the liberal arts college experience.
@zoosermom, What you’re talking about are the working poor. Families who earn $100k by working multiple jobs but without paid time off or health insurance aren’t really who we’re discussing here. In my opinion, people in that position really need to think long and hard before committing $40k/year or more to college. In NYS, they could attend a SUNY for $20k/year and bank the other $80k. If they’re lucky enough to be in a position to commute, they could bank ~$120k.
Nobody is disrespecting other families’ careers. I think most are saying there’s no shame in coming down a tier or two if their dream schools are unaffordable. But becoming angry and resentful, which I think will be difficult if not impossible to hide from their children, doesn’t help anyone.
[quote]
What you’re talking about are the working poor. Families who earn $100k by working multiple jobs but without paid time off or health insurance aren’t really who we’re discussing here. quote]
And what I’m saying is that if you only look at one number, you have no way of knowing what you’re dealing with when passing judgment. $100,000 is not wealthy by any standard. It could be UMC or it could be as you said, working poor people working multiple jobs, but it’s not so much money for anyone that the judgments made here are universally applicable. Same with $150,000.
That may be a good choice for people who are already established in the middle class, but some people see it (my current bus driver) as the opportunity to catapult the child or children solidly into the middle class with access to all the things that entails. For them, it can be totally the best choice to struggle and sacrifice for that once chance. I know more than a few families who work the extra jobs solely for the educational opportunities of the children, so there would be nothing to bank without that incentive. Top schools shouldn’t be only considered a good choice for the very wealthy. I think there is a lot to admire about the people who are willing to personally do whatever is necessary to pay the tuition at the best place their kids can be admitted. And those are usually the people who are so grateful for the opportunity that they wouldn’t think of complaining.
Zoosermom- agree with you 100%. In my neighborhood it is not uncommon to have three generations living together (and no, there isn’t space for everyone). Grandma shares a bedroom with two of the granddaughters. All the boys bunk together. An uncle gets the basement which is also the tv room and the homework room and where the equipment gets stored for whatever odd jobs someone does as a sideline- housepainting, snow shoveling carpentry. All the workers in the family contribute to the mortgage payment although it’s usually the “husband and wife” whose name is on the title. And all the excess cash goes towards education.
I know one of these families reasonably well. There are three kids (of the “husband and wife”) plus a bunch of cousins who have lived in and out for varying reasons and periods of time. One of the kids is an academic superstar. Two are highly motivated, hard working, average smart kids. The cousins mostly go to the local community college-- their parents are not as invested in their educations as the primary couple are in their own kids.
I cannot think of a single thing besides food that this family considers more important than paying for their kids college education. They will take in more “boarders”, add another part time job, literally whatever it takes.
Well, now we’re really veering off in several directions. In fact, several posters have mentioned their growing up- or current- financial constraints. The rest of us may just not mention their challnges publicly.
I have said- and believe - high income amount alone doesn’t determine how one can “afford” college costs. There is a donut hole, where some income ranges don’t get the cut off of the costs and do feel the pinch. No one said how they earn it makes a difference.
And sure, some bring more savvy to the admissions pricess or work several jobs, long hours, and other scenarios. But there is still that pinch. And that pinch is where this started.
It’s not lack of understanding, empathy, or compassion for those who achieve their numbers with difficulty.
^ I have said- and believe - high income amount alone doesn’t determine how one can “afford” college costs. There is a donut hole, where some income ranges don’t get the cut off of the costs and do feel the pinch.
Perfect. Thank you.
Lots of interesting themes. Class, income…
America is a little different than the UK. People are not held in their place in the same way though even in Britain with wealth, nice looks and athleticism you too can rise. Ask Kate Middleton. Someone here disparaged America, but America is still a place where a garbage collectors son can attend a top school and change his fate. And these children of garbage collectors aren’t the ones causing trouble at these elites with their low class ways. These kids are the ones already in the starting block, champing at the bit with their eyes unwavering on the finish line. They fully understand the cost and value of their opportunity.
Wealth creates opportunity and opens doors. In America, we have some older wealthy families who made their money in ways that I would never want to. I don’t buy the premise that some people are inherently superior. They used to have a lock on the elite options. However vulgar it is, if these families did not use their opportunities to choose fields that create wealth, after a few generations, that ancestor who was important at Ivy League X is only an historical footnote. An elite education is no longer a possibility for the current generation without exceptional performance.
The game has changed. People are no longer locked in or locked out. The modern day Jude the Obscure can have a happy ending in his life. Ask the garbage man’s son. And with wealth changing your class isn’t difficult in America. Those opportunities that you can give your children change their stars. My grandparents (who had to leave college when the depression hit) lived in the tiniest house with their eight children. Two generations later and almost all the grandchildren are not only college educated but a few at Ivy and elite institutions. A good number of the cousins being considered wealthy or upper middle class.
There are UMC people anxious that the opportunity they had in past can’t be replicated. It cannot. The new reality is now global and highly competitive. People with their eyes on the prize have planned accordingly or at least they tried. With this new board game, I just think it would be wise to make careful, objective evaluations. For us, unless the college was a career game changer like Stanford, we thought it was better to hold onto the wealth we made. That extra 100k that is spent for better wrapping, could also be a significant down payment on a home. If you spend a quarter of a million dollars on education, if you take on considerable debt, if you cannot pass on wealth to the next generation, will they have lost the ability to provide the same chances for their children? Are we now living in cycles of indentured servitude to these colleges?
42,000 students applied to UMass this year. Many smart children with top stats have been turned away, not made it into the honors program or not received merit aid. In this new hungry world, you need to be on your toes. Apply early action to these “safety” schools and emotionally prepare your kids for the new reality. College is just four years. They need to be able to succeed regardless of the environment because careers are forty years.
I agree, but garbage collectors can make good money too.
http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/24/news/economy/trash-workers-high-pay/
Also, one does not have to attend a top school to do well in America. There are plenty of Wisconsin-Whitewater grads with happy productive careers and lives. That is why the CC fetish of the full pay private LAC school is bizarre. Many of these schools have little discernible differences in outcomes compared to in-state schools, so their desirability by many people on this website is baffling.
That’s like saying why do people wear designer clothes when you can buy perfectly good ones at Target? It’s all about bragging rights.
@Zinhead Oh I know. My sister’s SIL’s dad (get all that) was a garbage collector is NYC. They had a nice life with fine things and good taste IMHO.
The tests for the NYC sanitation department are very popular and the jobs sought after for very good pay and benefits.
I am not that familiar with NE LACS, but here are the expected incomes from various public and private schools in Wisconsin. All information is via The Economist:
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/10/value-university
The two big research universities in the state are UW Madison and Marquette, and their salary outcomes are as follows:
UW-Madison:$51,000
Marquette: $55,600
So in this case, the private school has a small but significant income advantage over the comparable public school. Lets looks at the smaller private LACs versus the directional public colleges in Wisconsin:
Lawrence - $42,800
Beloit - $37,900
Ripon - $42,800
Carthage - $42,400
Concordia WI - $40,700
UW-Stout - $42,000
UW-Steven Point - $39,400
UW-Eau Claire -$43,400
UW-LaCrosse - $44,100
UW-Whitewater - $41,200
UW-Green Bay - $39,600
UW-Oshkosh - $40,500
UW-River Falls - $39,700
UW-Milwaukee - $42,000
There is very little difference between the two sets in terms of expected income outcomes. However, Lawrence charges $44,844 in tuition, Beloit charges $45,050, Ripon charges $36,514, and Carthage charges $38,375. Tuition at a non-Madison UW system school is under $9,000 for in-state residents, with OOS charges of less than $17,000.
Like NoVaDad99 said, attending a private school versus a public frequently is just about bragging rights.