<p>S is accepted in Duke and URich. He is interested in math/business.
He has visited both campuses was very happy with both. Cost is about the same, with aid. Major difference is the car ride from the north is almost three hours shorter to Richmond. </p>
<p>Conventional wisdom would say that Duke has a stronger brand name. Beyond the driving distance, can anyone build a case why Richmond might be a better choice for him?</p>
<p>No case can be built a case that Richmond might be a better choice for your son.</p>
<p>Duke & Richmond are not peer institutions.</p>
<p>Duke is a great national university along the lines of an Ivy.</p>
<p>Richmond is a good liberal arts college.</p>
<p>I disagree with Otis- don't read too much into US News rankings. I think you should go to the open house for accepted students at Richmond this Saturday and attend whatever similar program they have at Duke. Even if you have visited each campus already, it is an opportunity to meet the people who will be a part of your son's class. </p>
<p>A name can only float your son so far. It's about where he will be most successful. Which campus is the right size? Which school has a better feel? You mentioned travel so you should consider who allows a car on campus (UR does). What classes are offered for your son's intended major? What are the general education requirements? Where do graduates end up? </p>
<p>My opinion is obviously biased because I am set on UR for next year but I will tell you what influenced my decision. The classes are small. The professors are amazing. My AP US History teacher went to UR and he is a brilliant teacher- highly regarded by all students as well as the faculty. He began teaching three years ago and he is now the department chair of the history department and head coordinator of the IB program at my school. I know your son is not going into teaching but it leads me to my next point. UR offers an outstanding education that allows students to discover their niche and learn how to succeed. UR is home to the first school of leadership studies (Jepson) which can help your son take what he learns and soar; it will allow him to practically apply his knowledge and propel him into his chosen field as an expert and a leader. </p>
<p>Of course there are other benefits to UR- a gorgeous campus that is constantly well-maintained and it has a new (huge!) fitness center, wonderfully renovated dining hall, refurbished dorms, and a brand new on-campus stadium on the way. I know I have missed a lot of stuff but I don't want this post to be too ridiculously long! </p>
<p>If you use rankings as a factor in your decision keep in mind that UR is on the rise and that their undergraduate business school (Robins) ranks twenty-fifth nationally by the premier business-school rankings service of BusinessWeek. Duke's undergradate business program does not appear in the top fifty. Make sure you consider that UR's top undergrad business school will also help your son get into a top graduate school should he decide to pursue a graduate degree. </p>
<p>Good luck making your decision and make sure to visit both campuses before you deposit!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Duke's does not appear in the top fifty.
[/quote]
That might be because Duke doesn't have an undergrad business program. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Duke's does not appear in the top fifty. </p>
<p>That might be because Duke doesn't have an undergrad business program.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Good to know. That should probably be another factor in secondpick's decision.</p>
<p>When I was trying to decide between UR and a couple of other "brand name" schools, I came to a couple of conlcusions. First, is that at the levels of the two schools you're talking about, you're going to get a great education at either. It's up to each individual to seek out that education and take from it what they can. Second, and probably the most important, is where do I feel comfortable? I took overnight visits and stayed with current students at three schools. I didn't feel comfortable at all at the school I thought was the leader at the time. The kid I shadowed decided to blow off his classes (not because he had been partying the night before or anything, he just didn't feel like going). It was a struggle to find someone else who could take me to a class. The class I ended up going to was nothing more than a lecture and I feel asleep it was so boring. In general, I just wasn't as impressed with the "brand" school as I thought I would be. </p>
<p>At UR, the educational emphasis is really on undergraduate education. You don't have "star" professors that do nothing but research or teach grad. classes. You have them as advisors and your everday courses. For an undergraduate education (especially business), I'm not sure that it can be beat. </p>
<p>I would really recommend sending your son down and allow him to spend the night at the schools to see what's it's like for more than just a tour. It will allow him to see what the culture is at both schools, give him the opportunity to sit in on some classes and see what it's like from a student's perspective.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your input.</p>
<p>Dramageek and spiders, you are great ambassadors for your school.</p>
<p>We decided to make a trip to UR on Saturday for the accepted students day, we'll see what happens.</p>
<p>Well, to chime in for Duke, they have a ridiculous amount of money that they don't know what to do with, and they're giving it to undergraduates. Undergrads get a surprising amount of attention at Duke--professors actually care about their undergrad students, they're eager to meet and work with them, and they let them take graduate-level classes and do research work as underclassmen. Duke Engage is another program to look into--massive amounts of funding for community projects that Duke undergrads want to take on. Personal attention and support is something an undergrad will find at Duke--even from world-class professors who are expected to be distant. Seriously--professors at Duke are happy to strike up conversations and build relationships with smart and driven undergraduates. It's there for the taking and too many people assume that because Duke's not an LAC this environment doesn't exist.</p>
<p>If your son wants to study economics, then he should definitely look at Duke's B.S. in econ. This is a pretty prestigious major. I don't think Richmond offers the BS, only the BA.</p>
<p>Take a look at these stats as well (I'm assuming he wants to go to B-school):
<a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a></p>
<p>UR offers a BS in econ. <a href="http://business.richmond.edu/undergraduate/economics/econ_major_rsb.html%5B/url%5D">http://business.richmond.edu/undergraduate/economics/econ_major_rsb.html</a> </p>
<p>If you take a look, BusinessWeek ranked UR the 9th best macro school in the country and #5 in micro. Nothing to sneeze at. They're also in the top 10 in five other categories. <a href="http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/07rankings/specialty.asp%5B/url%5D">http://bwnt.businessweek.com/bschools/undergraduate/07rankings/specialty.asp</a> In fact, only two other undergrad business schools in the country rank in the top 10 in more categories than Robins (UVA and Emory).</p>
<p>
[quote]
You don't have "star" professors that do nothing but research or teach grad. classes. You have them as advisors and your everday courses. For an undergraduate education (especially business), I'm not sure that it can be beat.
[/quote]
Are we comparing Richmond to Texas or Duke? ;) All of my courses have been taught by professors, and my largest class this semester has 20 students (smallest has 4). I'm doing independent research with a well-known professor, and many students are doing the same.</p>
<p>As an edit to my earlier statement, Duke doesn't have an undergraduate business program (intentionally so), but they do have a top 10 business school to which students have easy access. I know quite a few people working with professors at Fuqua, and the Markets & Management certificate is popular.</p>
<p>Actually, I wasn't comparing UR to any school in that post. Looking through my post, I didn't see the word "Duke" anywhere. I was simply highlighting positives I experienced at UR. </p>
<p>I don't know what to think about the comment you made about several people you know working with Fuqua professors. I respect Fuqua and plan on applying there for my MBA, but every student works with the same professors that teach the grad school courses at UR. UR's MBA isn't nearly as highly regarded as Duke's, but it's the same professors teaching those MBA's that received an "A+" in teaching quality from BusinessWeek. My point being that every student is taught in every course from "MBA quality" professors, who are obviously highly respected. </p>
<p>In the end though, it doesn't matter where you go, but rather what you do when you get there.</p>
<p>It does matter to some extent where you go to college. Duke is a top 10 school and will afford the OP's son many more education opportunities as well as prestigious job offers as compared to Richmond. The top banking/consulting firms don't hire out of Richmond even though it has a buiness school and on the other hand, they recruit DIRECTLY ON CAMPUS at Duke even though there isn't an undergrad b-school there. Employers and recruiters know the quality of a student that usually emerges from a place like Duke so they will be more willing to take risks on him or her.</p>
<p>You're right evil, the top banking firms don't hire UR kids. I guess why that's why I have a job at a Top 10 IB (80 applicants) as an analyst, I have several friends working at GS (4-5 a year) and various other firms on the street. In fact, I have more friends working in the city and DC (for financial firms or consulting firms) than working in any other city, including Richmond. Not to mention that there are 8 Fortune 500 companies located in Richmond that all recruit heavily from UR. But what do I know? Obviously not more than this particular high schooler who has yet to step foot out of a classroom.</p>
<p>secondpick,</p>
<p>If you want to rely upon rankings then please have spider05 explain these rankings which confirm that Richmond is a solid academic school and Duke being a great university:</p>
<ol>
<li> College Confidential academics ranking:</li>
</ol>
<p>Duke = A
Richmond = B</p>
<hr>
<ol>
<li> US News overall rank:
Duke = 8th national universities
Richmond = 34th among liberal arts colleges
(tied with academic peer SewaneeUniversity of the South (TN))</li>
</ol>
<hr>
<ol>
<li> US News peer assessment :
Duke= 11th among other national universities
(tied with University of Pennsylvania & UMichigan)</li>
</ol>
<p>Richmond = 35th among liberal arts colleges
(tied with academic peers: Connecticut College, Franklin and Marshall College (PA), Rhodes College (TN), Sarah Lawrence College (NY), Pitzer College (CA), St. Olaf College (MN), and Earlham College (IN))</p>
<hr>
<ol>
<li> Wall Street Journal's Ranking of "Feeder Schools"
<a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf</a></li>
</ol>
<p>Duke = 5th
Richmond = UNRANKED</p>
<hr>
<ol>
<li> The Washington Monthly College Rankings: </li>
</ol>
<p>Duke University = #23 among national universities
<a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.national.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.national.html</a> </p>
<p>Richmond = # 60 among liberal arts colleges
(Richmond's academic peers being Bethel College (TN) at # 59
Lewis and Clark College (OR) at #61
<a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.libarts.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2006/0609.libarts.html</a></p>
<hr>
<p>.</p>
<p>In looking at some of the ratings for CC, I'm just going to say that I wouldn't trust what they say 100%. It's a student survey, nothing more, nothing less. I have a hard time trusting a ranking of colleges that has a B- as it's lowest grade for any school academically. Overall, I think a better school than UR, but for undergraduate business, I think UR is every bit as good.</p>
<p>As to the rankings you cite, UR was the former #1 Master's school in the South for 12 years running. Two years ago, they were placed in the LAC category. Two years ago, we also enacted a near $10,000 tuition increase, which killed our admission numbers/scores and our new "peers" are still unfamiliar with UR, so we've received low scores. This year, we have a record high number of applicants, so that will help our admission numbers, and I believe that as the new "peer" institutions find out more about UR, you'll see their peer assessment go up. Prior to the change in categories, we were receiving peer assessments of 4.1/4.2. 34 was a disappointing ranking for everyone and the general expectations are that we will increase our position. </p>
<p>WSJ's "feeder school" does carry some weight, but my argument with that is that is only takes into account the students going to the top 15 grad schools. For example, I have a job right out of school that has huge upside potential in both opportunity and compensation, so I don't want to leave it to get my MBA. Needless to say, my MBA opportunities are limited because I want to keep my job while I'm going to school, so I won't be going to a top 15 grad school. Additionally, most of the schools on that list have a top grad school associated with the school, and a lot of the undergrads filter into that program. UR has a decent grad B-school, decent law school and no med school. Small thing, but Duke is #6 on that list, which is still amazing and something you all should be proud of. </p>
<p>Washington Monthly's current cover story is "The Secret Lives of Washington's Power Couples." I think I'll ignore college rankings of publications that sound more like something my girlfriend would pick up in the checkout lane of Kroger's. I will highlight something more credible, the Princeton Review. Keep in mind that this is for undergraduate education only.</p>
<p>"The Princeton Review has rated the University of Richmond ahead of Harvard for academics in its 2005 edition of The Best 357 Colleges. </p>
<p>Each year, The Princeton Review ranks the top 10 percent of colleges nationally in four categories—academics, campus life, selectivity and financial aid. On a scale of one to 99, Richmond scored 96 for academics, while Harvard scored 94.</p>
<p>Each college’s ratings are based primarily on surveys of its students and administrators, according to the publication: “Factors weighed included how many hours students studied and the quality of the students the school attracts as measured by admissions statistics; we also considered students’ assessments of their professors’ abilities and helpfulness.”</p>
<p>In addition to its impressive academic rating, Richmond earned exceptionally high marks for campus life (94) and student selectivity (97). The University’s financial aid rating was 79."</p>
<p>Nowhere did I or other UR posters say that UR was better than Duke. I simply highlighted my school's academic reputation, especially the business school. I find it humorous that most of the posts from Duke posters attempt to bash UR, while the UR posters have said nothing but positive things for their own school. </p>
<p>I hope you enjoy your visit to UR this weekend. It looks like it's shaping up to be a nice weekend. </p>
<p>Oh, an additional reason your son may want to go to UR...our football team is better than Duke's.<br>
<a href="http://richmondspiders.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/090206aaa.html%5B/url%5D">http://richmondspiders.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/090206aaa.html</a></p>
<p>Yes, PR is completely reliable. You know, like when Chicago's academic rating went from 89 to 97 in one year. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find it humorous that most of the posts from Duke posters attempt to bash UR, while the UR posters have said nothing but positive things for their own school.
[/quote]
Unless I'm mistaken, I'm the only Duke poster on this thread, and I certainly didn't bash Richmond. I agree that some of the posters were a bit...overzealous, but doesn't reflect on Duke. We're friendly people. :p</p>
<p>Here it is 10 days later since my original post. My S did visit on the accepted students day last weekend at Richmond. We had a great time, met a lot of very interesting and helpful people. S still has not made his final decision. I appreciate very much the comments that people have shared above. It's clear that both schools are wonderful places, with devoted supporters. We'll see what S decides.</p>
<p>Second, I'm happy you all were able to make it down, it was a beautiful weekend in Richmond. Best of luck to your son and you all. He can't go wrong with either school.</p>
<p>Here it is another 10 days later. Final decision made -- University of Richmond! Thank you all for your input on this thread.</p>
<p>That's fantastic news! Congratulations on your son's decision to be a Spider! I hope you encourage him to get involved and make it the best experience he can for himself.</p>