Urgent help on UMich vs UVA for social sciences

College Search & Selection
1

Hi all,

I’ve been slaving myself for the last couple days trying to decide between Mich and UVA, and quite frankly, I still don’t know what to think. Some days, UVA appears better; other days, UM. I’m planning on studying the social sciences, so political science, history, economics, philosophy, etc. with preferably a view toward law school or a year or two in industry.

Financial aid is relatively equal, though UM was more generous for my first year package as an OOS and low-income kid. I would have to take a total loan of 22K over four years vs. a total loan of 36K at UVA; work study is 3k per year for UM and 4k per year at UVA. UVA has a weird thing with my preliminary financial aid package where my current aid is about 10k short of the total cost for attendance (though I hope my official aid package corrects this), so if I do commit, there is a chance I could get screwed with an extra 10k in debt.

I get better AP credit at UM, whereas UVA doesn’t accept credit for some of my AP tests. UVA has more academic flexibility between schools though, especially accelerated MPP, McIntire second-year transfer, etc. UM Ross and Ford are exclusive for majors and won’t really allow me to double major, etc.

Campuses are beautiful in their own right, though I prefer UVA’s mountainous/rural feel. Honestly, if UM switched campuses with UVA, I would probably choose UM in a heartbeat lol. School size distinctions are irrelevant since both are big state schools. I’m not too worried about the cold, growing up in the NE. I would probably like to work in the Midwest/NYC, but placement in both locations at both universities are basically indistinguishable.

USNews ranks UVA for undergrad slightly above UM nationally and among public universities, so I might be able to get better undergrad education at UVA. On the other hand, UM has a huge lead in departmental rankings for social sciences; UVA leads in English but only by a margin. The feeling of history and tradition at UVA is nice for what I want to study (humanities/social sciences); plus they have a bunch of old looking statues.

Career placement is relatively equal. Both schools I need to work hard to land internships/secure a job. But career placement is the most important factor for me; I really don’t want to be working at a Starbucks after graduation haha. The huge alumni network at UM is a plus, but size doesn’t necessarily prove quality. In industry, I’m probably looking to work for a private consulting firm, so this may be another factor.

Some differences I’ve noticed between these two schools:

UM:
Huge powerhouse research institution, with basically the second most research funding in the nation (National Science Foundation); I would like to do research with profs, so this is a definite plus. UM is actually slightly more selective than UVA; if admissions selectivity trends are to be believed, UM will likely have less than 20% acceptance or just about 20% acceptance this year. School pride is amazing. For me, Greek life is not as prominent and dies off by second year. Worried about being placed on North Campus, but I’ll be in RC or MCSP if I enroll so I should be okay.

UVA:
More of a focus on undergrad, I feel. The social scene is off-putting with the dominating drinking culture. Some students seem to not like it here very much and don’t fit in as well (in contrast, I’ve really heard nothing but rave reviews about UM). Some students don’t have a good first year, which is a serious bummer. Clubs are exclusive, so I might not even be able to do what I like first year or I might have to settle. This seems like less of a problem at UM due to its size.

Honestly, what’s holding me back from choosing UM is that UVA seems slightly more prestigious for undergrad due to its higher public and national rankings. UVA also seems to have more of a focus on undergrad education. UVA campus atmosphere has a greater emphasis on history, and it is nestled away in the mountains. If I choose UM, I feel as though it is perceived as less of an academic powerhouse and more of a sports/party state school in the eyes of the public. Idk, maybe I’m just nitpicking, but they’re so close for me that it becomes kinda meaningless.

I want to get a high-paying job out of undergrad, and it is what I care about most right now. I would like to have the best recruiting/career opportunities available to me after graduation.

Your thoughts?

2

Just look at a different ranking like the Times/THE ranking where UMich is 28 and UVa is 51. Seriously, don’t base your decision on ranking, especially since both schools are peers. Base your decision on fit, both academically and environmentally. Charlottesville and Ann Arbor are very different environments. They’re both prestigious schools.

3

Very good synopsis of the two schools.

D18 would have had to look at all that you describe more closely had UofM met her need as much as did UVA. They didn’t so her comparatives were limited to her other Top Choice Schools. Not relevant here.

That said D18 was specifically comparing the PPE program offering at UofM and the PPL program at UVA. Both have to be applied into at some point and are equally competitive to get into at each institution.

The PPE program at UofM is superior ( course offerings ) for someone who weighs the Economics interests more heavily whereas the PPL ( course offerings ) at UVA is far superior to most all other schools as the offering has a ton of courses that appeal to the student with Law School as an Interest.

D18 might pursue an Economics minor at UVA to add to the PPL major another best option. UofM doesn’t offer PPL nor a minor that would cover the “L”.

A key point is UVA is very flexible after the fact allowing one to choose majors and take courses across majors. D18 found this a deciding feature.

UVA is a tad closer to the real world for us. A bit warmer with a real Spring and Fall and shorter winter. One can say they don’t care but it matters to many more than they realize over time.

D18 clearly wanted to avoid the whole drama of Excessive Greek Life. She thinks things through readily and UVA is far from over the top with this like many of the real Southern Schools. Not a worry.

For us cost help decide quickly. Difference in meeting need based aid by $15,000 per year. However if they were priced the same UVA was still the better fit because of the Program of interest.

Truly if you flipped Programs and Cost UofM would be the likely winner.

If you equalized programs and cost UVA would be the winner for D18.

Location Location Location…

To be Honest UVA is practically taylor-maid to D18 with the PPL major so trying to avoid any bias here.

PS: You can’t go wrong with either choice if costs and program offerings are nearly equil. For us it would be about $45,000 more over 4 years to attend UofM for less program wise. D18 would have been very happy to attend a UofM I’m certain all things mentioned being equil.

PSS: The Location at UVA is the icing on the cake that makes it a much easier option to consider over UofM.

Longer Fall, Shorter Winter, Longer Spring

4

Changing majors and adding minors within UMich LSA is very easy. The plan for my kid is a major and two minors.

5

“If I choose UM, I feel as though it is perceived as less of an academic powerhouse and more of a sports/party state school in the eyes of the public. Idk, maybe I’m just nitpicking, but they’re so close for me that it becomes kinda meaningless.”

You are nitpicking and so wrong at the same time. Michigan is the academic powerhouse of the two. It has virtually no academic weakness. Recruiters and other universities know this.

6

Both Colleges are Strong academically. You cannot go wrong at either. More school ( Public Policy, Engineering etc ) specific or degree major/minor specific in deciding between the two on this point is likely the only way to weigh the differences here.

That and the college Campus experience you seek most.

Either College will equally prepare “one” for graduate school or the real world equally well. Though the major/minor options is key to your choice here as you will find your “interest” matter most. Always…

Look at the Program specific offerings and the professors and make a few phone calls.

PS: Having no academic weakness does not pass the smell test. Any student who excels say Straught A’s at either school in there area of “interest” will be highly reguarded at either school. The differences will be student specific at the interview. UVA will not remake you with prestiege over UofM nor vis-à-vis.

7

The operative word of the poster’s thought is not zero weakness, but almost no weakness.

UMich has 40 LSA programs ranked in the Top 10 and someone else pointed out on another thread that there’s probably another 10-20 programs right around that Top 10-ish ranking. For example, the math department is ranked #12.

https://lsa.umich.edu/lsa/news-events/all-news/lsa-in-the-news/forty-lsa-programs-in-the-top-ten–says-new-u-s–news-rankings.html

8

I like what Forbes has to say about what it looks at in ranking colleges…

“The Forbes list is notable also for the things it doesn’t measure, like SAT scores and acceptance rates, statistics we call “inputs.” We think students are more interested in “outputs.””

Here UofM is Ranked 22 and UVA is ranked 34.

If you do like the colleges do in deciding on students it’s more of Holistic approach that is individual specific when narrowing various schools.

Look at that Forbes 2018 list and for D18 any number of schools fall of the list rapidly. The too small schools through Tufts go away. The Military Academies go away. Narrowing to leaving Vanderbilt, Rice, USC and John’s Hopkins to choose from between UofM and UVA for D18.

Never considered Rice. USC is across the country and just way too far away to consider. John’s Hopkins wasn’t a good fit so she didn’t even Apply.

Vanderbilt is the only one true school between UofM and UVA on that Forbes list that D18 would have considered from her own Holistic Perspective…

So generic lists serve only one purpose. To help one create their own list to Holistically Review… they are not a badge of honor.

9

Top 40…

Yes Virtually…So True…

Bottom line is “if it doesn’t fit holistically you can’t commit”…

10

You must live in the South. Sure, UVa is prestigious, but so is UM. In fact, UM has been higher ranked than UVa for decades. It’s only recently that UVa has moved up.

That being said, do NOT commit without a complete finaid offer.

Both schools are excellent for social sciences. Either will get you to a top law school (as long as you receive a bunch of A’s).

I would submit it would be just the opposite.

yes you are bcos you like UVa better and are trying to justify it in your own/family’s mind…

If you like UVa better, AND the costs are similar, go there (but only after you receive an accurate financial aid offer). Otherwise go to the cheapest. There is no reason to incur more debt when law school is a possibility.

11

All things being equil look directly at the program of interest at both schools and dig in deep. D18 did and decided on UVA for her specific interest. That said UofM was a close second among many options.

If D18 gets accepted off the Georgetown or NotreDame waitlist another Holistic decision will need to be made at that point in time and maybe a forfeit of deposit…

Both UofM and UVA are Great Schools. Both have their Strengths and Weaknesses.

PS: You should call UVA and clearly understand your financial aid offer. Im not so sure that $10,000 isn’t already your responsibility. It’s kind of fuzzy they way you describe/understand it. It’s typically presented in Black and White. So best to ask directly what they mean to best make your decision…

While Villanova gave us a wonderful financial aid package they also worded the out of pocket costs to sound like some other sort of aid… so each school has its own nomenclature and it sounded nice the way they put it but that part was our responsibility.

Call UVA tomorrow and be clear on what’s aid and what’s your responsibility. Also ask if it renews each year.

Neither school is worth more than $5,000 per year over the other to satisfy other than minor holistic differences all other things being equil unless of course you have some really great reason out of the norm like a dying to get into program of study…

UofM may in fact be the better option financially as they do target certain specific cohorts whereas ( UVA ) across the board looks to meet need up to ones EFC for all students. In State and OOS… making UVA a much better option for many but not all financially.

12

Funny,

“You must live in the South. Sure, UVa is prestigious, but so is UM. In fact, UM has been higher ranked than UVa for decades. It’s only recently that UVa has moved up.”

I live in the NorthEast and the same could be said about UVA over UofMichigan…

But you may be right maybe…

It only took UVA 200 years to get its act together…

I applied to UVA like 30 plus years ago. It was right there at the time so I don’t know. Maybe the data and stats were not what they are today.

I’m in the North East and UVA is and always has been highly regarded for at least as long as I can remember and back then Michigan wasn’t even an afterthought in the NorthEast as far back as I can recollect.

But I also walked up hill to and from school for three miles in the snow and it was deeper 30 years ago too.

It’s likely Deeper in Michigan over Virginia on average too…

Really

13

Everyone is making this much too difficult.

Let’s correctly assume we are dealing with equally wonderful schools.

Both geographies are different but also equally fun and socially interesting.

UVA has a little better poli sci and law school combo imho. Access to DC and embedded networks for dc big Law. But this is a minute and fractional difference here.

UVA is charging you an extra 12k and funky first year gap.

At this level of excellence and your comfort level at each school - you shouldn’t pay one red cent more for uva over Michigan. Especially with law school as a potential goal. It’s expensive even for low ses students.

14

Actually, Michigan is higher ranked in PoliSci…

15

“I’m in the North East and UVA is and always has been highly regarded for at least as long as I can remember and back then Michigan wasn’t even an afterthought in the NorthEast as far back as I can recollect.”

Michigan has had a strong pull from the northeast going back to the ‘20’s when Ivy League schools started quotas restricting Jews from matriculating. You’re misinformed.

16

Schools are similar enough that you should go to the one where you will have the least amount of debt. You can find jobs on and around campus to make up for the workstudy differential. You also don’t need any $10k surprises.

17

@rjkofnovi

Please enough with the rankings. It’s minor league stuff.

My post already pointed out Michigan is the better option already!

My educated opinion as a NEUTRAL observer is that UVAs long-standing access and very real embedded connections to the global seat of political power and influence in DC, in the REAL WORLD, is much more valuable than any minute differences of an arbitrary and subjective ranking. Also UVA law and connections to dc power firms is very real too.

All that being said, Michigan is the better value and my choice for the OP.

Novi please don’t become such a cheerleader that you have to prowl cc for any perceived slight of UMich. It doesn’t need our help. It’s awesome already.

18

Sorry. Just trying to eliminate some pre-conceived notions.

19

It’s ok. I personally love your insight. But some others who love their school so much it undermines the insight. But poli sci st Michigan is top of the charts. I’m just trying to be balanced.

20

Both will be strong in social sciences. You can look at course descriptions, requirements, etc, and see the offerings and prof backgrounds/interests. Both excellent overall reps and highly desirable.

But here’s the kicker: the max you can take in fed student loans is 27k. Where would you get the extra?
No brainer, to me. Much as I adore UVa, go to UMich.