<p>TKSmom,</p>
<p>I think you’re right. I worry a bit because my son is competing against some other amazing physics/math kids in our large city when admissions come around next year. Being a homeschooler and a URM might not matter much if my son’s stats, essays, ECs, etc. aren’t at the same level as his friends from math circle.</p>
<p>beatlesdisturbed, I suggest you read the article we are discussing. The stats refer to a national pool, not my region.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, an adcom at a top 10 university told me that this year they admitted 12% of their Hispanic applicants, and their overall admit rate was 11%.</p>
<p>Well then, at least at that particular school, there’s no advantage (well extremely minimal) to being Hispanic. I’m curious why they told you this. Are you Hispanic? Did they said anything about other groups such as AA or NA?</p>
<p>PioneerJones, I wonder if you are mixing two different statistics. There is a top 10 university that reports 12% of their admitted class is Hispanic, but I do not know of any top 10 university that reports admit rates by racial group.</p>
<p>I’m gonna get reamed for this by fanatical “Wildcats,” but look at the Accepted/Waitlisted Students thread on the Villanova University board and see who got accepted with 1700s SAT scores, “cutesy” essay topics and horrible spelling/grammar in their posts. Then look at the race of the waitlisted students with higher scores/stats/activities and see AA is alive and well. Just telling it like it is.</p>
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<p>It wasn’t reported. Like I said, the adcom told me himself: there were 2,000 Hispanic applicants, roughly, of which 240 were accepted.</p>
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<p>I attended a minority student recruiting function at the school. Yes, I am Hispanic. No, I did not hear anything about AA or NA applicants.</p>
<p>I think some of you guys are getting a bit confused here. </p>
<p>Even if what PioneerJones is saying is true, it doesn’t support OP’s assertion at all. Hispanic applicants tend to have, on average, lower numerical stats to begin with (sounds like I’m being racist but I’m not). So, given similar stats, a hispanic applicant is more likely to stand out from the crowd than, say, an asian applicant. </p>
<p>You can’t expect a top school to accept like 50% of the hispanic applicants. It makes sense for there to be competition among the same race. The URM boost isn’t really about a larger proportion of one race getting accepted; it’s about applicants from one race having an easier time getting admitted compared to an applicant of another race of similar level.</p>
<p>Look at it this way. Asians are “discriminated” in the process but we are, at most top colleges, the most “over-represented” race. The ORM disadvantage doesn’t mean we CAN’T get accepted; in fact, I doubt that the acceptance rate for asians is too different from the overall rate. It’s more a matter of qualification.</p>
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<p>Is this supposed to prove that Hispanics don’t have an advantage in admissions?</p>
<p>It actually proves the exact opposite. Since Hispanic applicants tend to have much lower GPAs and SAT scores but a higher overall admissions rate, we can conclude that they have a much easier time getting in.</p>
<p>The OP’s argument is one of the worst I’ve seen on this forum.</p>
<p>First, one applicant’s experience involving one school means nothing. </p>
<p>Far more convincing are the scores of data showing that black students have a much easier time getting into college. Being black is worth at least 300 points on the SAT, and black students have a 15 times greater chance of getting into an elite school than an Asian student with comparable stats.</p>
<p>Another thing that is overlooked is that for black students, high stats (GPA and SAT scores) are often sufficient for admission. For instance, a black student with a 2200 SAT (2500 after adjustment) and a 4.0 GPA and no ECs has a very good chance of getting into Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or Princeton. A white or Asian student with a 2400 SAT and a 4.0 doesn’t have the slightest chance at any of these schools without exceptional extracurriculars.</p>
<p>So yes, kitty8, as almost everyone acknowledges, including the colleges themselves, black students – and to a lesser extent Hispanic and Native American students – have a much easier time getting into elite universities.</p>
<p>I wasn’t making an argument for either side. Hence “for what it’s worth.” My impression of the students I met at this function was that they were all very intelligent and promising students, objective statistics notwithstanding.</p>
<p>“Far more convincing are the scores of data showing that black students have a much easier time getting into college.”</p>
<p>transfers2010, Can you link some of it here? I’ll start with the 93-97 data from Espanade regarding black student who score 1500 or above on the old SAT, and some numbers about the percentage of, OR gross numbers of “black students getting into college”; Your choice. I’ll start looking for both. </p>
<p>I think what you mean is, there is some data to suggest that black students applying to top 30 schools have a higher admit rate. I don’t think that’s the same. Especially because I believe it’s the same 400/50,000 black 18 year olds that benefit at all 30 schools…</p>
<p>You guys need to stop with all these anti-AA threads. I sometimes, too, feel it’s unfair. However, you will not change anything, and you also end up insulting those people who really didn’t decide that they race will give them a boost in college admissions. How much AA really helps in admissions is up to each individual college. Sometimes they may want an African-American and other times they may desire a Romanian with musical abilities. Who knows? They’re PRIVATE universities and it’s up to them to select the class and decide who they want to comprise the community. Just because someone is given a chance does not mean they will succeed, and just because you don’t get into Yale doesn’t mean you won’t succeed. Truth is, your spot wasn’t ‘taken’ by someone; that caucasian person with 100 more points on their SATs, better ECs and a stronger course load got in, so maybe it’s because you simply were as competitive as others. Perhaps the university felt that you wouldn’t fit into their community. </p>
<p>As I have mentioned before, whining about not getting in to one Ivy and being a minority is also pathetic. </p>
<p>There is no reason to either argue that AA doesn’t exist nor say how unfair it is. Such is life, move on.</p>
<p>I have three white male sons. It’s a reality that the current objective of colleges and universities is to be a vehicle of upward social and economic mobility for URMs. Live with it! I do. I hope the lucky Ivy League URMs will help others from their race when they leave college and contribute funds generously back to their institution. I hope they discover the cure for cancer. My non-URM sons will not be disadvantaged by going to small, “less prestigious” colleges. They may have a better education than a URM at Harvard. You should all be better consumers of education, not focus on status, and know that attending a “top” college is not a silver bullet for a good education, useful life or fulfilled future!</p>
<p>The Opportunity Cost of Admission Preferences at Elite Universities</p>
<p>“Using data from the National Study of College Experience on 124,374 applications for admission during the 1980s and the fall semesters of 1993 and 1997,they found that elite universities give extra weight in admissions to candidates whose SAT scores are above 1500*, who are African American, and who are student athletes. A smaller, but nevertheless important, preference is extended to Hispanic and legacy applicants. African-American applicants receive the equivalent of 230 extra SAT points (on a 1600-point scale), and being Hispanic is worth an additional 185 SAT points. Other things equal, recruited athletes gain an admission bonus worth 200 points, while the preference
for legacy candidates is worth 160 points…”</p>
<p>*I believe this turned out to have been less than one percent of black students taking the SAT,which was probably less than 10 percent of black 18 year olds.</p>
<p><a href=“https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf[/url]”>https://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf</a></p>
<p>Percent of blacks attending college is proving hard to find. Data regarding graduating HS is much easier, but still quite depressing. </p>
<p>“High School Completion Rate
The high school completion rate for African Americans age 18 to 24 rose two percentage points from 75.6 percent in 1992-94 to 77.8 percent in 2002-04, while the rate for Hispanics showed the largest increase up from 56.6 percent in 1992-94 to 64.4 percent in 2002-04. Hispanics still trail whites and African Americans in high school completion. The high school completion for whites was 87.6 percent in 2002-04, up from 85.6 percent in 1992-94.”</p>
<p>I DID find this, but it doesn’t say anything about percentages.</p>
<p>"College enrollment among African Americans rose by 42.7 percent between 1993 and 2003 to total more than 1.9 million students. "</p>
<p>[ACE</a> | Students of Color Make Dramatic Gains in College Enrollment But Still Trail Whites in the Rate at Which They Attend College](<a href=“American Council on Education”>American Council on Education)</p>
<p>Ahhh! </p>
<p>“Although students of color made significant gains in college enrollment, African American and Hispanic students still lag behind their white peers in the rate at which they enroll in college. In 2002-04, 47.3 percent of white high school graduates age 18 to 24 attended college compared with 41.1 percent of African Americans and 35.2 percent of Hispanics.”</p>
<p><a href=“American Council on Education”>American Council on Education;
<p>Fully possible that some are admitted but don’t attend for a vanity of reasons, but is it reasonable to believe from this data that “black students have a much easier time getting into college”? More striking is the number who attend but don’t graduate.</p>
<p>I can already hear the “yeah,but’s:” I get that statistics don’t tell the whole story. that’s my point. Not useful TO ME, to quote the 93-97 Espenshade data out of context.And yes, I know. Some think its our “fault.” Still, a punch in the face to tell people trying to help in most black communities that it’s “easier for black kids to get admitted to college.”</p>
<p>This might be helpful. Again, not for the cc elite admissions population, just with regard to how misleading the phrase “URM advantage” might be to the more general population.</p>
<p>[SREB</a> Fact Book on Higher Education, 2009](<a href=“http://www.sreb.org/page/1123/fact_book_on_higher_education.html]SREB”>http://www.sreb.org/page/1123/fact_book_on_higher_education.html)</p>
<p>Some top 10 schools do report their admit rates, at least for african american freshmen. If you google JBHE acceptance rates for african americans, you should find the chart.</p>