URM Chances

<p>To reply to davidrune and to bring up a point that no one has yet clarified (atleast no one has clarified it very well), you said:</p>

<p>"Secondly, I don't buy the whole racism idea. Other ethnic groups have felt racism. Why don't they benefit from AA? Asian immigrants have had to endure the worst of conditions."</p>

<p>There are a few groups that are minorities, but do not reap huge benefits from colleges with AA policies. For example, Asian, Indian, and Jewish applicants rarely receive any special consideration from admissions committees. The reason for this is that, historically, these ethnic groups have culturally held education (particularly higher education) as a top priority. Certainly, they have endured hardships (but hey, if you want to go far back enough, every culture has endured hardship). I cannot speak for Asian and Indian cultures, but in Orthodox Jewish families, a book is considered a sacred object. Should it touch the floor, it must be kissed; should it become old and unreadable it must be buried with rites. Cultures which have not traditionally placed a high value on secondary education (THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT INTELLIGENT PEOPLE) are often given a "leg up" in the admissions process. THAT is why Asians, as you say, do not benefit from AA: because they have traditionally and culturally always valued higher education and have strived to attain it.</p>

<p>To make a long post even longer, I want to touch upon something that I don't think is a viable justification for AA. Numerous posters (both for and against the policy)have said that AA is a means of ameliorating and correcting the past. While this may be true, it is not the intended purpose of Affirmative Action. Rather, it is to implement change into the future. In order to do this, past actions must be taken into account; however, AA is really designed to shape the future. Colleges, employers, government officials recognize not that there was a problem with egality in education in the 1860s, but that there is a problem TODAY. Their utilizing AA is a means of changing what is going on right now in America; it is not so much an over correction of the past.</p>

<p>ive never thought about it that way...</p>

<p>but i guess i agree with your premise that it is to implement change in the future</p>

<p>
[quote]
but in Orthodox Jewish families, a book is considered a sacred object. Should it touch the floor, it must be kissed; should it become old and unreadable it must be buried with rites.

[/quote]

Are you Jewish? Are you orthodox? I am. And I'd appreciate if you do not distort the truth. This only applies to holy books, like a prayer book or the Torah. However, your point that we hold education in the highest regard is a very valid one.</p>

<p>And, further, your point still doesn't say why Affirmative Action is good or necessary or fair. But it is a good post, overall.</p>

<p>hey ummm</p>

<p>just out of curiosity, thestonedpandas, do you believe that racism no longer exists in the United States, specifically towards black people?</p>

<p>Indeed I am; I didn't mean to distort any truth. I know that the Holy books are held in an incredibly high regard in our family (as well as other families). I was only mentioning that to demonstrate that in the Jewish tradition, books, education, learning, and knowledge are all (and have always been) incredibly high priorities. </p>

<p>Thank you for the compliment, but I'm afraid I'm about to lose it:
I am in the strictest proponency of affirmative action...sort of. I agree with the foundations and the initial purpose of the policy. I disagree with the execution of these ideals. In other words, I fundamentally agree with the goal of Affirmative Action--I think we all do. I don't know of anyone who actually believes in white supremacy or superiority; I think that everyone on this thread wants a campus (or a workplace or a government or whatever) that is diverse and holds no prejudices (either good or bad) directed at any specific ethnic/religious/cultural group (this is why I think it's absolutely ridiculous when pro-AA people call con-AA people racist). However, when Affirmative Action becomes a tally mark in any application process, it loses its intended purpose. This is the reason that UMichigan (go blue!) was indicted by the Supreme Court a few months ago--they had grossly misinterpreted and misrepresented what was supposed to be a fair system to all concerned (yes, whites too!) I don't mean to sound like a dreaded flip-flopper here by saying I'm both for and I'm against the policy at the same time; if I did sound like that I'll clarify one last time: yes, I believe that in theory, AA is good, fair, necessary, and any other synonyms of those adjectives. In practice (as of yet) the policy has kind of degenerated. I am of the school of thought "mend it, don't end it" with regards to AA. Indeed, society has come a long way in the past 50 years; I think AA (an improvement on the current system) is necessary to ensuring future progress. Unfortunately, affirmative action orthodoxy is inviolate; this must correct itself in order to implement any change in the future.</p>

<p>I'm sure it exists, but I think we've made tremendous improvements since the 60s, both the 1860s and the 1960s.</p>

<p>ethioman00, stop using racism as an excuse for Affirmative action. America has become so PC that even the word "black" can be considered a racial slur. Racism is not limited to black people. Even black people can be racist. Listen to the lyrics of Chingy, in which he directly insults chinese people.</p>

<p>Sure, racism exists. Affirmative action does not fix racism. </p>

<p>manyalasagna: Your point is entirely valid. The african-american culture does not value education. I completely agree with that . However, I don't think that affirmative action results in that. The fact remains that a very small percent of succesful blacks will in fact go to inner-city areas and try to promote education. The only images that most african-americans see of succesful blacks are rappers, gangsters, athletes... all careers that do not require much higher level education.</p>

<p>The government should invest in inner-city areas and try to build positive stereotypes. They should also encourage educated and succesful black people to come to inner-city schools and speak and motivate students. I know that this happens, but it should be happening at a wider scale. Stuff like this will fix the imbalance, not affirmative action.</p>

<p>when an upper-middle class white kid gets rehab and a fine for his coke habit</p>

<p>and a black kid gets a five year mandatory minimum federal prison sentence for his crack habit</p>

<p>you start to draw some conclusions...</p>

<p>first of all, what you say proves socioeconomic distinctions, not race distinctions.</p>

<p>however, YES ETHIOMAN, I GUESS THAT ALONE PROVES EVERYTHING. you should check out this site, man: <a href="http://www.aros.net/%7Ewenglund/Logic101a.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aros.net/~wenglund/Logic101a.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>bumppppppppppp</p>

<p>thank you the stonedpandas for your link to the logical fallacies page, it was thoroughly refreshing and educational</p>

<p>however it did not serve to convince me at all that my logic is in any way flawed</p>

<p>racism exists, affirmative action exists to combat it and also to redress past (and worse) racism, and the lack of economic opportunities that arise from this racism</p>

<p>and im sure youll call this an appeal to numbers (or to authority, etc) and call it a logical fallacy but ill say it anyways</p>

<p>many fortune 500 companies along with the united states military filed amicus curiae (sp?) regarding the university of michigan affirmative action case - they all believed that affirmative action was a necessary component to their recruiting and promotion processes.</p>

<p>the military was in VERY strong support of affirmative action because of the large percentage of blacks in the military, and their belief that an all-white officer corps commanding a sea of black troops wouldn;t exactly go over too well</p>

<p>Firstly, naming one case without any details where a black kid was punished more than a white one does not prove that racism still exists in America. I could just switch the races and it would prove my point.</p>

<p>Secondly, you're right about what I am going to say. Just because greedy companies do it to enhance their PR doesn't make it morally right.
Third of all I'd like to see the links. Do you honestly think those companies supported affirmative action because it helps them? I thought you realized that huge corporations are only interested in making a profit, and affirmative action definitely doesn't help them make a profit by itself ... unless it helps them with PR. And about the army -- if you knew about their AA policy you'd realize it is hardly like the way universities have used AA at all. And the reasons behind their AA policy are completely different from the reasons behind university AA. So saying that the army supports Army AA doesn't mean that anyone should support university AA. </p>

<p>Look, in order to show me that Affirmative Action is ok you MUST do the following things which nobody on your side has been able to do:</p>

<p>(1) Show me why two wrongs make a right -- especially when the second wrong harms an unbiased third party.
(2) Show me how affirmative action helps the people it is meant to help (you cannot do this in light of the studies that have been done).</p>

<p>Oh, and from your military example are you insinuating that it is ok for African Americans to be racist against whites?</p>

<p>"Oh, and from your military example are you insinuating that it is ok for African Americans to be racist against whites?"</p>

<p>explain that statement to me</p>

<p>(1) Show me why two wrongs make a right -- especially when the second wrong harms an unbiased third party.</p>

<p>show me how affirmtative action harms white people (or any other type of people) in any significant way</p>

<p>as to your second burden, look to clarence thomas, a man who readily admitted while he was the head under President Reagan of the EEOC that "affirmative action...is what made the biggest difference between the first 17 and the next 17 years of my life). He was a beneficiary of AA when applying to Yale, and now sits on the Supreme Court (however he is staunchly opposed to AA, much to the chagrin of people like myself)</p>

<p>in addition, look to Franklin Raines former CEO of Fannie Mae, who also credits affirmative action for pulling him out of the worst neighborhood in Seattle and sending him to Harvard, and who later went on to be a RHODES SCHOLAR</p>

<p>thomas jones, former head of global investment banking at Citigroup also benefited - he even led a campus revolt at Cornell when they refused to create an african american studies department</p>

<p>Ivy League schools, when admitting students, are not going to admit students who they don't believe can handle the work. The african americans that are "affirmative action admits" ie lower SATs etc are judged by the school ot be capable of handling the workload - and they generally do.</p>

<p>ethioman00, I completely agree with you saying that the world needs black professionals. </p>

<p>I just have one question. Does Affirmative Action create a world, where Affirmative Action will not be necessary in let's say 20 years? If so, how?</p>

<p>affirmative action is a weak, and half-ass attempt at changing the makeup of our society as far as professionals are concerned. I actually believe a smarter way would be to ACTUALLY invest HEAVILY in inner-city, "ghetto" areas that tend to have a high concentration of URMs. No BS "No Child Left Behind" acts that go underfunded, no broken promisies - pay teachers who agree to teach in inner-city areas more, hold school officials accountable for the performance of their schools, and in addition, ensure that the children who live in these areas have access to opportunities beyond gangs, guns, and teenage pregnancy. If their poverty is caused by their parents' drug addiction or criminal history, establish a program like Prep for Prep, which is what New York City has. They take the most promising URMs from the worst of the New York projects and prepare them for entry (with a full scholarship) into those big-name, private boarding schools (Philips Exeter, Middlesex, Andover, etc). Its all about opportunities, and then enforcing that black children have access to those opportunities and that they are not placed in jeapordy by unfit parents or an indifferent society.</p>

<p>however, all of that happens to be idealistic BS. the united states refuses to take seriously the problem that black america has as far as educational underachievement and economic malaise, and affirmative action happens to be one of the last "great equalizers" available to give those kids who SHOULD be helped by the programs I outlined above.</p>

<p>if we took the education and empowerment of black america seriously in this country, we could've been done with affirmative action and other programs specifically designed to advantage URMs a generation ago. However, we never did. We gave blacks their "rights," which we then took away by ensuring that we imprison at least a half a million of them on trumped up drug charges, and then denied many of them access to a decent education by underfunding black public schools.</p>

<p>so anyways, AA is one of the last attempts at leveling the playing field - and the field is nowehere near level as far as higher education is concerned between races - thats why i support it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
show me how affirmtative action harms white people (or any other type of people) in any significant way

[/quote]

Sure. For every underqualified URM that gets in, a white person suffers. But, actually, affirmative action HELPS white women and hurts african americans. so if you want to go about rewarding white women, affirmative action is the way to go.</p>

<p>and once again, your speech about CT is ridiculous as well. not only would he be disgusted at your representation of him (he has tried to end affirmative action, as you admitted) it is, again, a single case. do you honestly think you can support a claim with <em>one</em> example of someone prominant. that's like arguing that dropping out of college is great because, hey, bill gates did it. and besides, if we're going to play this game, ebony magazine ran a feature that asked the most succesful black men how they got where they did and not one said or even mentioned affirmative action. they mentioned hard work and perseverance. and, you can't say they generally do. look at my study that i presented a couple times in this debate.
In fact, you should read the first chapter in Larry Elder's book. it will make you smarter. there is not one scintilla of evidence that affirmative action has helped blacks as a whole. in fact, "[that assertion is ] False, say Stephan and Abigail Thernstrom in "America in Black and White": " ... The growth of the black middle class long predates the adoption of race-conscious social policies. In some ways, indeed, the black middle class was expanding more rapidly before 1970 than after. ... Many of the advances black Americans have made since the Great Depression occurred before anything that can be termed affirmative action existed.""</p>

<p>here's some more from larry, but you really should read the first chapter of his book.
Black economist and ex-Federal Reserve Board member Arthur Brimmer studied the extent to which blacks owed their jobs to affirmative action. His conclusion: "I would say that most blacks I know did not get [their jobs] because of affirmative action, but it's impossible [to determine the exact number]."</p>

<p>Similarly, Ella Edmondson Bell, who teaches organizational studies at the MIT Business school, says that most blacks get hired through "determination [and] perseverance."</p>

<p>Jonathan Leonard, who teaches economics at University of California at Berkeley, said of affirmative action, "There's been some small effect, but certainly not worth all the rhetoric directed at it."</p>

<p>But hasn't affirmative action expanded the number of opportunities for blacks? Not really. Farrell Bloch, author of Anti-discrimination Law And Minority Employment, notes that affirmative action mostly rearranged the employment furniture. Pre-affirmative action, blacks tended to work for companies with fewer than 100 employees. Post-affirmative action, blacks tended to work for larger companies. Why? Big companies were under the gun to recruit blacks. Where did they get them? From smaller companies, or from workers who otherwise would have worked for smaller companies.</p>

<p>Affirmative action is also a big factor behind the higher than average drop-out rate among blacks in colleges and universities. In the California UC system, only 7.2% of minorities admitted under "special criteria" (code for affirmative action) graduated in four years, and less than 50% in six years. "White or other" students graduated at rates of 34.1% and 77.6%, respectively. This is the sports equivalent of athletes who could perform at the AA level, struggling at AAA ball. And those who could perform well at AAA, failing in the major leagues.</p>

<p>Now, how did black leaders go from rightfully demanding equal opportunity, to demanding equal results? After all, nowhere in the writings of Martin Luther King does one find the expression "affirmative action". In Ending Affirmative Action, Terry Eastland writes that former national Urban League head, Whitney Young, sought race based preferences. But his board resisted. The president of the Urban League in Pittsburgh said that if blacks push for race based preferences, the public would react with the following question: "What in blazes are these guys up to? They tell us for years that we must buy [non-discrimination] and then they say, 'it isn't what we want.'" A New York Urban League member flatly objected to a policy of "the business of employing Negroes 'because they are Negroes.'"</p>

<p>Today, South African President Nelson Mandela speaks out against "a culture of entitlement" and warns of "false prophets who seek to perpetuate the apartheid divisions and imbalances of the past, by presenting affirmative action as a program intended to advantage some and disadvantage others on the basis of race and color." </p>

<p>A recent article in "Destiny" magazine, the black conservative monthly, shows that the black-white income gap narrowed well before affirmative action took hold. In 1959, among intact families outside the south, a black family earned 78% of what a white family earned. Ten years later, black families earned 91% of that of a white family. In 1950, black college educated women earned 91% of the income of their white counterparts. By 1970, the earnings of black college educated women exceeded that of their white counterparts by 25%.</p>

<p>"Ebony" magazine ran a series called "If I Were Young Today," in which older black achievers gave advice to black youth. Their advice was straightforward, their optimism striking. Work hard, get an education, don't blame others, your time is now. The great civil rights and union leader A. Phillip Randolph said, "[Black] youth must offer the future the same things that white youth offer and they must have the faith that there is no basic racial difference in potential for achievement -moral, intellectual, or spiritual. The future holds great opportunity for those who are prepared to meet and face the challenge of this age of science, technology and industrialism and social, economic and political change."</p>

<p>Oh, the year of this "Ebony series"? 1963.</p>

<p>Notice anything? Mr. Randolph forgot to mention "affirmative action." Maybe he found it too..."divisive"</p>

<p>and about your last post: why is it idealistic? sounds to me like you should be working toward that -- something i support -- than something as controversial as affirmative action.</p>

<p>ethioman00, great post. Finally, we both agree on something.</p>

<p>Pandas, that's a well-argued... argument</p>

<p>thanks davidrune</p>

<p>and thestonedpandas...here is my problem with abolishing affirmative action. its the only program left to at least make an ATTEMPT at "leveling the playing field" as i was talking about earlier. IF the government were to take seriously the plight of many black americans, and take the steps that I outlined above, and make a true and earnest attempt at righting the wrongs done to black americans by investing in their neighborhoods and in their educations, then i would be fine abolishing it.</p>

<p>but abolishing affirmative actionoutright, with no plan to replace it, will not solve the problem. all you will do is ensure that a very small number of blacks (keep in mind, only 72 blacks scored above 1500 on their SATs) have access to the best universities in the country, and do nothing to solve the basic, underlying problems that plague black america.</p>

<p>in addition: how does having affirmative action lead to a "culture of entitlement?" I'm black. I have a 1550. I work hard in school, and succeed because I've got access to educational opportunities that most black kids don't. I know that affirmative action will "help me out" in the admissions process, yet I don't feel entitled. In fact, I feel the exact opposite - I feel like as one of only a few high-achieving blacks, its my duty to do well, if not just for my own future, then to prove to the world at large that somebody can "make it."</p>

<p>bumpppppppppp</p>

<p>Man ethio, as much as I respect you, YOU SIMPLY CANNOT APPLY ONE MENTALITY TO ONE PART OF A GRUOP AND ASSUME THAT IT APPLIES TO EVERYONE IN THAT GROUP.</p>

<p>I'm glad that you're now going to work for black education, but your mentality is not equal to the general black mentality. Hey man, you said it yourself. You probably didn't benefit from affirmative action. There's an excellent chance you would have gotten into Penn anyway.</p>

<p>Now, about your first paragraph, you can either encourage something which is at best an effort and at worst a detriment (which according to study after study, it is) or you can step it up and try for a change. The vast majority of Americans, even ones for a smaller government like myself, support the programs that you've suggested. The vast majority of Americans don't wholeheartedly support AA. So man, the ball is in your court. You settle for something that doesn't work or you step it up and fight for progress. I know you can do it. You fight for progress against big corporations. Why not for this issue which is even closer to home?</p>