<p>I would also like to know their social security numbers and favorite colors...</p>
<p>oh yeah
penn, since its private (though I dont know if thats really why) does not have an AA program. Penn can take whoever it wants for whatever reasons, and if they want to take a black kid with a 1200 instead of a white one with a 1600, they can do it. They purposely take people to diversify the campus, even if they are not as qualified as some who are not accepted. AA is supposed to give an advantage to urms who are equally qualified, but penn can do whatever it wants.</p>
<p>MegaMike, Penn DOES have an AA program. Your post stating that private schools, because they are private, don't have AA programs, is a bit misguided. Private schools were among the first to institute affirmative action programs.</p>
<p>Affirmative action in admissions is not a national policy... no law was signed requiring colleges (public or private) to have affirmative action. Caltech, a private college, does not have AA, while MIT does. Those are the choices both schools made.</p>
<p>In fact, public universities have copied AA programs of privates (particularly Ivy League schools, all of which have been pioneers) in order to keep a "critical mass" of URMs. In Georgia, UGA is about to reinstitute its affirmative action program after suffering year over year declines in both black applications and black enrollments (black students are applying to Emory, out of state private schools, and out of state public schools all of which have AA programs).</p>
<p>"The University of Pennsylvania values diversity and seeks talented students, faculty and staff from diverse backgrounds. The University of Pennsylvania does not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, color, national or ethnic origin, age, disability, or status as a Vietnam Era Veteran or disabled veteran in the administration of educational policies, programs or activities; admissions policies; scholarship and loan awards; athletic, or other University administered programs or employment."<br>
doesnt that basically mean no true aa?</p>
<p>edit - i read closer, its a bit different, but isnt the aa at penn differernt from the way michigan was using it when they got in trouble? or did they get in trouble because they were a state school?</p>
<p>second edit - oops, i was misinformed (wrong) though i still think that penn does not need to justify its aa because it is a private school - they can do whatever they want</p>
<p>michigan's was deemed illegal because there were actual values given for being of a certain race</p>
<p>they had a point-value system for evaluating applicants to their law school, and I believe being black or native american or hispanic gave you a certain number of points</p>
<p>at ivies, they just "consider your ethnic background" whatever that means</p>
<p>ROCK ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MAY YOU LIVE AS LONG AS RACISTS DO!</p>
<p>I don't think there is an affirmative action case that has targeted the validity of private school affirmative action programs. All court cases have involved public schools (Michigan, California, Texas, Georgia, etc.). Yet private schools are the most visible supporters of affirmative action programs (Ivies in particular) and most of the frustration people have with affirmative action seems levied at competitve private school admissions. </p>
<p>The reason that you have not seen court challenges to private schools, IMO, is because lawyers know that a court challenge of a private school admissions policy wouldn't pass muster. </p>
<p>The part that sucks is that "elite public schools" try to compete with private schools, but are in a bad spot when it comes to competing for minority students because private schools are often at an advantage.</p>
<p>In an effort to boil this down....let me ask this:</p>
<p>Since we know that around 800 black students scored more than 1350 on the SATs, would you all who suppose AA be in support of denying those 800 students admission into top schools (supposing the average SAT score for those schools is in the 1450 range)? Mind you, these students are scoring in the top 1% of all African Americans. You would still be against admitting them?</p>
<p>Davidrune, I don't think anyone is saying that african americans are dumb just because their SAT scores are lower. You are making an immediate link between SAT score and intelligence/aptitude, which is dangerous anyway. I believe the argument is that the two are not so closely related, especially for african americans. Are you from Africa or the Caribbean?</p>
<p>Whomever posted the Barbados/Bahamas (forget which) article, you cannot align that with African Americans. Contrary to your post, all blacks are not of the same culture. Those from the Caribbean are of a much different culture than those in the US. The scores of those in the article have nothing to do with African Americans.</p>
<p>The reason I don't really like AA is because:</p>
<p>Most people that support it have almost patronizing support. Firstly, they make a big assumption that all African-Americans are poor and have ignorant parents who do not value education. TThat is not true at all. The majority of black people are poor, that doesn't mean that all black people are poor. If the majority of white people are rich, then the government's graduate income taxes be based upon colour of skin. With white people paying more than any other race. But they don't do that. Because they realize that in the end generalizations about races are just that, generalizations. They don't give any information about each individual. </p>
<p>I am not African-American, I am African. But in the eyes of America, black is black and I have often felt that people think I'm less intelligent just because I'm black. Affirmative-Action just propagates the image that black people are not as smart as white people. </p>
<p>Secondly, I don't buy the whole racism idea. Other ethnic groups have felt racism. Why don't they benefit from AA? Asian immigrants have had to endure the worst of conditions. </p>
<p>Despite all these, I do see the benefit of diversity within the campus. But, diversity of views and life-experiences, not a diversity of intelligence. This diversity should come out through your essays and teacher references, not by checking a simple box.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since we know that around 800 black students scored more than 1350 on the SATs, would you all who suppose AA be in support of denying those 800 students admission into top schools (supposing the average SAT score for those schools is in the 1450 range)? Mind you, these students are scoring in the top 1% of all African Americans. You would still be against admitting them?
[/quote]
You accept them just because of that statistic? Stanford rejects 50% of the 1600s that apply. Many students get into top schools with less than a 1340.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Whomever posted the Barbados/Bahamas (forget which) article, you cannot align that with African Americans. Contrary to your post, all blacks are not of the same culture. Those from the Caribbean are of a much different culture than those in the US. The scores of those in the article have nothing to do with African Americans.
[/quote]
You didn't read what I wrote. I specifically wrote that their culture was different. My post was to refute the fact that the SATs are "culturally biased" because, as you've just admitted, the Barbadians have a different culture than white people! I sure am glad we agree.</p>
<p>"affirmative action makes me furious. without it you probably wouldn't have any chance of getting in. since unfortunately that's not the case, you probably will get in"</p>
<p>Anon, you actually sort of **** me off. First of all, Runner8491's friend has a decent chance IF those SAT scores are raised. Then again, I know a 1200-something who got into Penn so who knows. The ECs are also strong.</p>
<p>I too despise affirmative action but even BEFORE I saw the race, I thought he/she had a good chance... So it doesn't bother me that you dislike affirmative action and even if AA didn't bother me, I'd still be okay with you having your opinion. What bothers me is that your bringing an excellent student down just because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. No, I'm not saying they definitely will get in. Nothing is ever really for sure.</p>
<p>Runner's friend, your SAT II scores are a little low too...</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly support affirmative action, and I don't believe that it was ever as strong as it should have been or could be.
After the civil rights movement, the United States should have made some serious attempts at "reconstruction" of the black community - education, low-interest loans to start businesses, and razing the disgusting "public housing" that we today call projects (just a few examples, much more should have been done, I'm sure)</p>
<p>However, the United States, because of the refusal of many of our top leaders to go so far out on a limb to help a people that are <em>only</em> 12% of the population, blacks instead recieved spotty support, with only the most shrewd of blacks actually benefiting from the underfunded and underadvertised (I know, probably not a word) programs. </p>
<p>What should have happened is a socioeconomic revival on the scale of the Marshall Plan, except for specifically to get blacks up to par with their counterparts in the United States. (40 acres and a mule anyone?)</p>
<p>Since that didn't happen, but affirmative action at least attempts this, I believe it to be a necessary component of any reputable American instituition of higher education's admissions process.</p>
<p>When should affirmative action end, ethioman? Do you believe in reparations?</p>
<p>The biggest problem with affirmative action is that for the vast vast majority of blacks and URMs who receive it, it encourages a second place mentality. "You don't have to be as good as a white boy" is what it says. What I DO support, however, are programs and opportunities designed to help <em>low</em>income<em>people</em>regardless<em>of</em>their<em>race</em> learn and study so they can excel. The moment you lower standards it encourages what Larry Elder would call a "victicrat" mentality.</p>