URM Chances

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
81

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<p>There are always EXCEPTIONS to the rule. Exceptions to the rule DO NOT MAKE THE RULE. These exceptions are very, very few in numbers.</p>

<p>Try getting a job without a high school diploma, other than the ones at Burger King or McDonald's. Try getting a job without a college degree. The facts are that, with a college degree, one earns on the average a couple of million dollars mor in one's working than one without a college degree. Period. Facts don't lie, but statements such as the one above do lie.</p>

82

<p>ethioman00, you don't need affirmative action clearly. But you are going to benefit from it. Because you're going to check the race box... </p>

<p>And, being black in America is suffering... I don't deny that at all. But so is being gay in america, being jewish in America, being Asian in America. Minorities will almost always experience racial prejudice. Just because black people have a history of slavery, does not mean that they should get a boost in college admissions because of prejudice. And then you're are arguing that affirmative action is a tool to combat racial prejudice.</p>

<p>Firstly this is wrong, because affirmative action if anything just stimulates more resentment and prejudice. Secondly, I see absolutely no correlation beteen being discriminated against and getting a leg-up in college admisions. I mean, the government should try to combat this problem through education, affirmative action is definitely the wrong way to go if the goal is to combat prejudice.</p>

83

<p>And, a study in Harvard showed that the majority of black students who benefited from affirmative actoin were immigrants. I think the percentage was like 2/3... while immigrants only constitute 8% of the America population.</p>

<p>Affirmative Action really just screws black students who you believe should benefit from affirmative action, in the favor of black immigrants.</p>

84

<p>Good for you ethio - you've obviously worked hard. And I think you're wasting your breath here. Some of these zealots just need an excuse make themselves feel better when they don't get into some college. They can easily claim that it's because of AA, when AA isn't even being used......it's the school's choice to admit a diverse class.....internationals, blacks, asian americans, native americans, poorer students who can't pay the tuition yet still choose to apply to some of the most expensive colleges in the nation when much less expensive schools are available - in hopes of a handout (anyone have a problem with that?). </p>

<p>Statistically speaking.....Asians are at the top of the spectrum for scores. The Asians are being held to higher admission standards than whites becauser they would otherwise become even more overrepreseneted on campus than they already are, and the white admission rate would decrease. The number of blacks being admitted is nothing compared to the number of asians feeling like they're being locked out because their bar has been raised so high. Ethio, if these students on this thread want to do away with campus diversity initiatives they'll find that the trick's on them......the 30 or so black students in Penn's next class who received a tip in admission is a drop in the bucket compared ot the hundreds of asians who would get in over whites if the race consideration was eliminated. They'll never admit that, though......never. Everything being said by the whites here about the blacks is being said by the asians about whites...."they're not as prepared as us, they're taking our slots, we've got better scores"......etc.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, AA is a convenient excuse when the thin envelope arrives.</p>

85

<p>momsdream, I don't really know how you can assume that every kid in this board is white. That is clearly a very wrong assumption. I'm a black student. Secondly, if affirmative action is indeed harming asian students, then why should the policy continue?</p>

86

<p>Momsdream said,</p>

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<p>Ethioman may deserve to be admitted without race preferences, but we may never without the admissions process being more transparent. Again, even for the most qualified or even the equally equalified black applicant as compared to the rest of the applicant pool, race preferences are used for his admission. Race preferences for blacks are used for almost ALL competitive and highly selective colleges, with the possible exception of one school. Do you know the name of this school? It is CalTech, which does not cut corners and use race prefrences for blacks in admissions. The reason is that it has the most rigorous course of study in the nation, and lowering the standards for admission for blacks or anyone else would be a disservice to blacks, by lowering his chance to graduate. Race is the biggest tipping factor in admissions by lowering standards in the nation's competitive colleges, much more than any other preference used, such as the legacy, rich and famous VIP, athletic and geographical perferences. The use of the race preference for underachieving and underperforming blacks admitted with lower standards has no peers and no bounds.</p>

<p>There are only 70 blacks who scored 1500+ and only 190 blacks who scored 1450+ on the SAT I out of 130,000 black SAT I test takers in 2003. This a PITIFUL and shameful number of high scorers for blacks and glaring defciency for blacks, especially for the most affluent economically advantaged blacks with family incomes of more than $100k/year and parents with graduate degrees, who also "game" the system by taking test prep, foreign travel, good schools, etc., yet these affluent blacks, on the average, can't even perform better than the poorest whites or Asian Ams who have no advantages. This is PITIFUL and sad for blacks, especially the academically underachieving affluent blacks, the only ones who benefit from AA . THESE AFFLUENT LOWER PERFORMING BLACKS DO NOT DESERVE AA. Why should they?? Many of them are children of recent immigrants from Africa and the Carribean and not descendants of Afro-American slaves, the ones who sufferred from slavery under Jim Crow laws. The even lower achieving, poorer blacks receive no benefit from AA to the elite colleges, and they are so underforming, relatively speaking, they would not even qualify for a college, let alone an elite college, like UPenn. Simply speaking, there are VERY FEW QUALIFIED BLACKS for the elite colleges. As we speak, the racial gaps in academic achievement between blacks and whites (Asians) with the use of raced based AA in the elite colleges, are widening, solving nothing but causing a tremendous disservice to blacks, by not addressing the root causes for these racial gaps.</p>

<p>Similar results would hold for the SAT II tests, which some say are better indicators for academic success, although the CollegeBoard refuses to release the results according to race. There are not enough blacks, who are EQUALLY QUALLIFIED as the rest of the admitted class of whites and Asian Ams, to fill the 10,000 thousand or more spots in the more competive colleges. Therefore the colleges must resort to the use of race based AA, by lowering the standards of admissions for admission of blacks.</p>

<p>You also said, "the 30 or so black students in Penn's next class who received a tip in admission is a drop in the bucket compared ot the hundreds of asians who would get in over whites if the race consideration was eliminated."</p>

<p>This statement is ABSOLUTELY false, without any basis in fact. You don't even have your numbers straight. Please don't please pull numbers out of the air.</p>

<p>Penn's incoming class is about 2400, with about 8% blacks. Penn admits 4800 to get a yield of approximately 50% or 2400 for ALL its admits. For blacks, it is 8% (.08) times 4800, assuming the yield for blacks is 50%. The yield for blacks actually is much lower. It admits 384 blacks to yield 192 blacks.</p>

<p>According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education (JBHE), only 1% to 2%, not 8%, of UPenn would be black had UPenn not used race preferences with AA by lowering the standards to admit a total of 8% blacks. Therefore, of the 384 blacks admitted to UPenn only about 48 to 96 or 72 (on the average) blacks actually would be admitted, if the same standards were used as the rest of the class. The other 300 or so blacks admitted would NOT have been admitted, if raced base AA were not used. There are VERY FEW black applicants who qualify EQUALLY, under the same standards of admission as the rest of the class. Therefore, of the 384 blacks admitted to UPenn, over 300 would not have been admitted without the race preference by lowering the standards for these blacks. UPenn is expected to yield 50% of the 384 blacks, or 192 blacks for the its entering class. The VAST MAJORITY of blacks admitted to Penn would not have been admitted without AA by lowering the standards of admissions for these blacks. These other 300 or so admitted blacks should have gone to lower tier colleges where they are actually academically fitted for their qualifications and where they have much opportuny for a college degree and actually graduating. The black FAILURE TO GRADUATE RATE at UPennn for blacks is 3 to 4 times greater than it is for whites and Asian Ams.</p>

<p>These other 300 or so blacks admitted to UPenn are not equally qualified when compared to the rest of all the admits to Penn, if they are qualified they are qualified at the lower end of the spectrum of the class. It is all RELATIVE!!</p>

<p>You also said, </p>

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<p>No one ever said that Whites are not as prepared, but Asians are prepared as well as whites, with the same characteristics, yet they are admitted at much lower rates than whites, or 60% to 70% of the white admit rates. </p>

<p>Blacks admitted with lower standards with AA are simiply not as prepared as whites and Asians. That's why they need race prefrences for admissions. Without race prferences for blacks, blacks would only be 1% to 2% of the elite and competitive colleges, instead of of the 6% to 8% blacks in these school, enabling over 10,000 blacks to enter who are less prepared than the rest of the class of whites and Asian Ams in each of their respective competitive college. Again, it is all relative!!</p>

87

<p>davidrune-</p>

<p>I didin't make assumptions. I am aware of the race of some of the posters on here becuase they have disclosed in another thread. I am aware that although you are black, you are not African American....you are Nigerian and therefore don't speak for African American students.</p>

<p>I'm not going to spend time volleying on this issue. I stand by my position and support diverse campuses. I also support the continued advancement of educational opportunities in our public schools so that students on the lower end of the economic scale are able to compete fairly - no matter what race. </p>

<p>I feel that I am viewing the siutation most fairly as I am the offspring of a white mother and a black father. My son is the offspring of me and a father who is hlaf hispanic and half black. We don't hold racist views because they make no sense in our family. Mentally, we're best positioned to see clearly on various viewpoints. Additionally, though I live on the mainland now, I grew up in the Caribbean. I am and have always been a US citizen. I'm very much connected to diverse views of the world. </p>

<p>I'm not going to return to this thread because it's far too negative and such debates on CC never end peacefully. I'm thinking positive thoughts about Penn and the opportunities for everyone here who who hopes to attend....inlcuding my own son. I'm returnign to my happy thoughts.</p>

88

<p>Correction of above:</p>

<p>Ethioman may deserve to be admitted without race preferences, but we may never without the admissions process being more transparent. He is also going to indicate his black race to the adcom, instead leaving the question about his race blank, and not letting the adcom know what his race is. Simply by stating that he is black, race will play a factor in his admission, even if he is equally qualified as the rest of the admitted students, because race is used as a tipping factor. That's the point.</p>

89

<p>Ethiomam is not a descendant of African American slaves, but of African immigrants who are affluent (correct me if I am wrong). These afflent blacks simply do not deserve race based AA.</p>

<p>Checkout: Barack Obama Went to Harvard by ethioman</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=5614%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=5614&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Affluent children of African immigrants should not receive racial preferences in admissions, because they are not the intended beneficiaries of AA. They don't deserve AA. They are not the intended beneficiaries of AA.</p>

<p>Why sould these blacks, with all the advantages of their affuence in "gaming" the system, receiving race prefrencesbecause they underperforming? These blacks, who are not descendants of Afro-American slaves, should be not be admitted based solely on the color of their skins, with lower standards. This how corrupt, demented, unjust and unfair race based AA to the elite colleges has become, especially to the descendants of American slaves, who receive no benefit at all.</p>

<p>In fact, why should underachieving and underperforming rich affluent American blacks with all the economic advantages for "gaming" the admissions process by taking test prep, going to excellent schools, taking foreign travel and having parents with college graduate degrees, receive a racial preference over a higher performing and academic achieving dirt poor white or Asian with none of the aforementioned advantages of the rich blacks. That's exactly what happens with this corrupt policy of race based AA in favor of blacks, especially the ones from the middle and upper economis classes. They don't deserve preferential treatment based soley on the color of their skin.</p>

90

<p>2nd correction of previous post:</p>

<p>Ethioman may deserve to be admitted without race preferences, but we may never (know) without the admissions process being more transparent.</p>

91

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<p>Racial "diversity" is a rationalization for the use of racial quotas and this is a temporary politically correct lame excuse used by the US Supreme Court in justifying the use of race as factor in admissions, temporarily or for another "25 years" as per the swing vote, Justice Sandra O'OConnor, who voted in its favor in the 5 to 4 decision. </p>

<p>Diversity transcends race. True diversity is not defined by race.</p>

<p>What are the educational benefits the school allegedly derives from a diverse student body? How did the school make that assessment? What's the evidence of these benefits?</p>

92

<p>I think ethioman's family origins are from Ethiopia, Africa, simply from his name. Why should affluent blacks who are from families of recent African immigrants deserve racial preference in admissions based on the color of their black skins??</p>

93

<p>To momsdream:</p>

<p>Diversity transcends race. True diversity is not defined by race.</p>

<p>The adcoms admit INDIVIDUALS into their schools, and should evaluate each applicant as an INDIVIDUAL, not by generalizing, stereotyping, or racial profiling the individual according to race, ethnic group, religion and creed. There is absolutely no place for this in admissions. This is immoral, unjust and unconstitutional. This makes for biases and discrimination against Asian Americans in admissions to the Ivies and the elite colleges, simply because they are overrepresented at about 15% of the Ivies and some of the elite colleges, on the average.This percentage for Asian Ams is capped, limiting their numbers by a de facto quota against Asian Ams.</p>

<p>Admissions should be race and ethnic group blind. The adcoms should not have to know the race or ethnic group of the applicant. They should not ask the applicant about his race. Even if adcoms knew the race of the applicant, it should play no role or factor in admissions.</p>

<p>The adcoms do not ask Jewish applicants if they are Jewish. They do not know and they don't want to know. The adcoms used to know, during the pre WW II period to the 1960s, when they used discrimnatory quotas against stellar Jewish applicants, excluding them from the Ivies. These anti-Jewish quotas have been abolished, and in their place are the anti-Asian American quotas against stellar Asian applicants. Jews are over 30% of Harvard and about 33% of UPenn today. Jews are only 2 and 1/2 % of the American population. I have no problems with this. Asian Americans are 4% of the population, but their numbers are capped at about 15% in the Ivies and elites by a de facto racial quota against stellar Asian Ams. I have a BIG PROBLEM with this. If it were not for the anti-Asian Am quotas, the percentage of Asian Ams would be much higher than their ppresent 15% in the Ivies and the elite colleges. Asian Americans are over 40% at UC Berkeley and UCLA and even 20% of U.of Texas-Austin, where they are less than 3% of the Texas population because racial quotas were abolished at these 3 schools.</p>

<p>In the book, "Getting In: Inside the College Admissions Process" , by Bill Paul, published by Addison Wesley, 1995, on pages 201 and 202, the Admissions Dean of UPenn, Mr. Lee Stetson, stated that Asian Americans are "today's Jews" in admissions, inferring that Asian Ams are discrimnated against in the same manner the Jews were with exclusionary or limiting quotas or caps on their numbers. With all due respect to Jews, Asian Americans do not want to be "today's Jews" in admission and be subjected to caps and racial quotas against them. This is immoral, unjust, discrimnatory and unconstitutional, as it was with yesterday's Jews.</p>

94

<p>Firstly, I'm not claiming to be African-American. I'm just pointing the error in you claiming that only white students where criticizing the flaws in affirmative action.</p>

95

<p>Ethio, those statistics were in his book as well and are documented.</p>

<p>Now, ethio, now what if you had a black mentally retarded applicant. *Keeping in mind what you said in your last post * would you be just as delighted if they got in and you did not ... even if they worked harder than you did?</p>

<p>Momsdream: do you deny that other minorities (asian, Jew, etc.) feel just as much discrimination as blacks? Do you deny that the space of otherwise qualified applicants are taken by those who are less qualified? Especially those less qualified who haven't felt the burden of racism? Especially those whose ancestors weren't here 400 years ago?</p>

96

<p>ASalientOne: That's such a valid point. It's not only blacks who are discriminated against so why do they get boosts when asians or indians or jews don't? I've been discriminated against various times throughout my life, and I've also lived in very unaffluent areas and been limited in various ways, but just because I'm indian and not black I'm not going to get any boosts. Where's the logic in that momsdream?</p>

97

<p><a href="http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041115-010054-8672r.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20041115-010054-8672r.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

98

<p>
[quote]
because I'm indian and not black I'm not going to get any boosts. Where's the logic in that momsdream?

[/quote]
why don't you write UPenn and ask them that?</p>

99

<p>Click on:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/16/4199b52f0c9db%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/16/4199b52f0c9db&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Study questions benefits of race-based admission
By anna haigh
November 16, 2004</p>

<p>Daily Pennsylvanian</p>

<p>[In the study, University of California, Los Angeles law professor Richard Sander argues that black students would be better off without affirmative action, and presents data showing that students who benefit from the policy generally have low grade point averages that hinder their ability to pass bar exams and complete law school.</p>

<p>The study will be published in the November issue of the Stanford Law Review.</p>

<p>"In the case of blacks, at least, the objective costs of preferential admissions appear to substantially outweigh the benefits," Sander wrote in a summary of the study, called "A Systemic Analysis of Affirmative Action in American Law Schools."</p>

<p>Job "market data strongly suggests that most black lawyers entering the job market would have higher earnings in the absence of preferential admissions," he wrote. He added that he believes stronger grades, rather than a high-profile school, lead to better employment prospects.]</p>

<hr>

<p>Only about 40% of blacks graduate law school and pass their respective State Bar Exams nationally for licensure to practice law.</p>

<p>Click on:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"STANDARDIZED TESTS: THE INTERPRETATION OF RACIAL AND ETHNIC GAPS"</p>

<p>[Need a Lawyer?
In 1988, New York State's Chief Judge established a committee, The New York State Judicial Commission on Minorities. Its purpose was to study the presence and effects of racism in the state's courts. Buried in its final 2000-page report was the finding that minorities passed the New York bar exam at significantly lower rates than whites. The commission found that for the period spanning 1985 through 1988, first-attempt pass rates were 31.1 percent for blacks and 73.1 percent for whites. Applying the methods of Appendix A, we translated these pass rates to a corresponding black-white mean difference of 1.11 SD. </p>

<p>Several years later, commenting on the Commission's findings, Edna Wells Handy wrote in The New York Law Journal of April 1996, "Determining whether those pass rates have remained constant since the Commission's report must await the completion and dissemination of the national bar exam study presently being conducted by the Law School Admission Council." Ms. Handy was referring to the most ambitious study of law students ever attempted. The Law School Admission Council is the organization that administers the Law School Admission Test (LSAT). At the time Handy's article appeared, it was tracking 27,000 students who enrolled in U.S. law schools in the fall of 1991. The students were followed from law school entry to the bar exam. The Council issued its report in 1998, finding that 92 percent of white law-school graduates passed the bar exam on the first attempt, as did 61 percent of black graduates. This implies a black-white mean difference of 1.13 SD.
The Council also reported the results of repeated attempts at the bar exam. It found that eventually 97 percent of white and 78 percent of black law graduates passed, corresponding to a black-white mean difference of 1.11 SD.</p>

<p>The one-plus SD gap between black and white lawyers stubbornly refused to go away. Others, however, viewed the Council's findings differently. "This study strongly refutes the myth that affirmative action policies tend to set students up for failure on the bar exam," hallucinated Henry Ramsey Jr., a retired California state judge and member of the committee that oversaw the study.</p>

<p>Tamar Lewin, covering the Council's report for the New York Times, characterized the Commission's findings as "likely to provide important support for advocates of affirmative action." Her column appeared under the headline: "Minorities Achieve High Success Rate in Bar Exams, Study Says." </p>

<p>The fact is that affirmative action has stratified the bar by race and ability. Black lawyers lag behind their white colleagues in measured ability by about 1.1 SD. Affirmative action creates a racial gap at law-school entry that never goes away. When entrance credentials are controlled, racial differences mostly vanish. More than 20,000 adult blacks in the U.S. have an IQ of 130 or more, but because of affirmative action, the chance that your black lawyer will be one of them is vanishingly small.]</p>

100

<p>bumpppppppppppp</p>