<p>Anon, what a disgusting to say. It is a real tragedy that people like you are so ignorant. Please make an effort to truly learn about affirmative action and the reasons behind it. You should be thankful for the advantages you have recieved from your upbringing and not resentful.</p>
<p>Anon, AnuVX, ASalientOne, and Co. I respect your right to oppose affirmative action, but the way in which you attempted to prove your point of view was pretty abraisive. Borderline offensive, actually, with the generalizations you made. You don't even seem to be aware that Hispanics(particularly Mexicans and Puerto Ricans) and Native Americans also benefit from affirmative action--to the same extent that African-Americans do.</p>
<p>The best argument I can make for Affirmative Action is that it ensures a diverse campus at top schools. I like diversity. However, I don't see that it's any better if a URM with a 1300 goes to UPenn as opposed to Penn State. If affirmative action's got rid of, it would just make schools that have an SAT midrange of around 1320-1420(where most of the borderline URM that get accepted under AA are) really diverse, because they'd be accepting more minorities of all stripes (yes, that includes Asians, because Asians would no longer be held to artificially high standards). So Wellesley, Oberlin, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Notre Dame, and other schools of that caliber would become really diverse. I think the "lower Ivies" would become more diverse, too. HYP, by contrast, would get really white, and Stanford really Asian. Sorry, I don't think the East Coast schools would see a significant Asian population spike. It's not just being held to a higher standard that's causing Asians with high test scores to get shut out; to make a broad generalization, East Coast Asian achievers are usually less well rounded than achievers of other races.</p>
<p>What's my point? Well, an America without affirmative action wouldn't be that bad. So the OP might end up at Wesleyan and not UPenn? Honestly, once you reach the US News top tier, there is little difference in the quality of education recieved. Harvard's not so much better than SUNY Binghamton's Honors Program.</p>
<p>But AA makes YALE, and HARVARD, and MIT, and STANFORD diverse. That's really what it is all about. Frankly, I don't know if it's worth it. I also don't think affirmative action is worth the hatred people like Anon and his supporters seem to feel not toward the program, but towards its beneficiaries. We don't need any more fuel for racists. We don't need any more hate. There's already enough.</p>
<p>Surprise, surprise, I'm against Affirmative Action. But I'm also against the rationale that many people have taken up for being against it. </p>
<p>Who am I? I'm a first-generation American, born to Jamaican parents. I've lived upper middle class all my life, and rarely have I been a victim of racism. I'm one of those people who doesn't deserve or need AA, but I get it anyway. If you've been here bellyaching about affirmative action(before even recieving a rejection letter!), you probably aren't a top applicant to the top schools. You wouldn't need to complain, if you were. I bet my test scores are in the same range or better than yours, anon, but if I get into a top school I'm sure you'll think I took somebody's place---your place, right?</p>
<p>On the same vein, it annoys me when people put "URM" in their subject title. As if that the thing that's going to get them into college! I think you all are overestimating the importance of AA. But, guys, if you want to blame the fact that you didn't get into UPenn on AA (or, rather, on its beneficiaries, whom you have attacked nonstop throughout this thread), then hey, go for it.</p>
<p>But who the hell truly cares. If affirmative actions makes you shiver with repulsion, then why apply to a school that endorses such a policy?</p>
<p>Once again this board has made me reconsider my *<strong><em>ing stupid application that's most likely already decided.
BOO *</em></strong>ING HOO, if someone gets in because they are BLACK. Some were born with legacy, some were born with darker skin or an unrepresented ethnicity- it's the system and it's something you have to deal with- you shouldnt bitch and moan about something that won't AFFECT you, because if Penn wants YOU, they will take YOU.</p>
<p>It's a useless argument. Look at this country's *<strong><em>ING HISTORY of what we did to African-Americans... and now YOU are going to cry because they have affirmative action to Ivy League Schools? Yeah maybe they're trying to save some sort of face and the government's views towards racial issues are incredibly *</em></strong>ed up, and I can argue either side of affirmative action. But I won't. </p>
<p>If you don't get into a certain school, that was your fate, and your essays and your grades and your scores and whether or not the fat **** reviewing your transcript had his danish that morning. </p>
<p>DEAL WITH IT. </p>
<p>I'm a white girl, I'm financially secure- but if someone who was black and just as financially secure as me- then **** it. It wasn't meant to be.</p>
<p>Firstly, tallyrand, thanks for talking nicely and making a good (and perhaps) well thought out response. I'm as1, by the way.</p>
<p>Here are a few points of contention:
[quote]
Borderline offensive, actually, with the generalizations you made. You don't even seem to be aware that Hispanics(particularly Mexicans and Puerto Ricans) and Native Americans also benefit from affirmative action--to the same extent that African-Americans do.
[/quote]
Please point to me any generalizations or unfactual statements I made. I tried not to make any. And, the fact that other minorities benefit from AA doesn't make AA right. In fact, a recent study done (look at the links posted, second to last last post orf last page) showed that White Females benefit the most from AA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also don't think affirmative action is worth the hatred people like Anon and his supporters seem to feel not toward the program, but towards its beneficiaries. We don't need any more fuel for racists. We don't need any more hate. There's already enough.
[/quote]
Whoa there, buddy. I don't hate anyone who receives AA. I hate the concept, not those who benefit from it. I am not a racist, i fact, I support equality of race.
[quote]
you probably aren't a top applicant to the top schools. You wouldn't need to complain, if you were. I bet my test scores are in the same range or better than yours, anon, but if I get into a top school I'm sure you'll think I took somebody's place---your place, right?
[/quote]
Actually, from anyone applying at my school, I am most likely the most qualified (although I might not get in because one girl's grandpa will donate 100 million bucks if she gets in and another has two brothers who went there). I am not blinded by personal circumstances. Do you think it fair that someone less qualified than you (who hasn't, as you claim, experienced racism) gets in SOLELY because of his skin color? You've had to work for what you've received. Can they make that claim?</p>
<p>I do not attack the beneficiaries. I attack the (flawed) ideology.</p>
<p>bumpppppppppp</p>
<p>Leave affirmative action alone -- injustice in the college admissions process can be summarized in two words: LEGACY SYSTEM. Legacy is the biggest crock of **** ever to be conceived. It basically says, "well you arent that good of an applicant but since daddy went to our school and paid us off we'll have to reconsider!"</p>
<p>you're ignorant.</p>
<p>wow you all are really ignorant and I hope I don't have to deal with you immature freshman next year.</p>
<p>Were you talking to me? I've really tried to keep an open mind about this thing and it's a position I've only reached after hours of thought.</p>
<p>mainly i was talking to david he just seems really immature.</p>
<p>bumppppppppp</p>
<p>LOLOLOLO WHO CARES! DECISIONS TODAY!</p>
<p>QUIT TALKIN AboUT THIS YA'LL!!!!</p>
<p>I personally believe that Affirmative Action is necessary. Many argue that it is racist because it discriminates against whites. This is not really the case. The highest number of applicants to the top schools in the country come from the white race. Therefore, the white race makes up most of the incoming class. It would be different if African-Americans were most of the class under Affirmative Action, but not when they only make up 9% or even less. I personally believe that if affirmative action were to be taken out of the admissions process, and race were no longer asked for in the college application, the number of black, hispanic, and native american admittees will be a smidge of what it is now. It seems as if those who do not want race to be a factor in the admissions process want colleges and universities to rely on the SAT Scores and GPA's, which seems ridiculous to me, given that most of the applicants to Top Tier Schools have high SAT scores and GPA's. Therefore, Colleges would have to accept way more applicants than they can possibly admit. Hence, that plan is not workable.
Also, Affirmative Action is used to correct past injustices in America. To take out affirmative action from the admissions process, you are ignoring the history of America. 40 years or so of integration cannot correct a history of separation and overt racism. Basically, the level of equal playing field is still none existent. Also, the Ivy league and top tier schools do not just give special preference to underrepresented minorities. They also give it to recruited athletes, development cases, VIP Cases, Talent cases, legacies, geographic location, etc., yet no one seems to be complaining about that. An athlete can get into a fine school just because he is a athlete, yet he or she may have no academic achievement. An applicant can receive special treatment just because his or her parent went to the school that the applicant is applying to. Famous peoples' children can get into any school just because their parents are famous. As the author of "A for Admission" stated, for every minority accepted under affirmative action, there is always a legacy, recruited athlete, etc. accepted with the same SAT scores and GPA.</p>
<p>Sdma - There's one problem with your argument. Jews were also not allowed into Ivy League universities until the last 30 years. Look at the religious makeup now though; most ivy league schools are like 20% Jewish (Penn is much more). Why have Jews been able to "level the playing field" so to speak while blacks have not? There's something wrong here...</p>
<p>On the other hand, if blacks need a boost to get into college, then I support affirmative action. I hate schools like Princeton were everyone is white and WASPy. That's no fun for anyone. I would accept people with lesser academic qualifications for the sake of diversity.</p>
<p>ummmmm...in all reality jews have had other means of getting education and prospering, and I would think that many jews have attened ivy league schools; however they were not waving flags to proclaim that I am jewish. It is silly to compare about 200 years of slavery and about 100 years of jim crow to discrimination of other ethnic minorites. Clearly there is something wrong there....</p>
<p>It's a known fact that not all blacks(and all others that can benefit from AA) receive the preference. Also, the top schools don't accept rampant numbers of students w/ lower stats. They still want to keep their averages up. I, a black male, had a 1340 SAT, 3.69 GPA, numerous local and national awards, Model UN awards, teacher of religious ed, tutor, President, VP, and treasurer of various clubs, etc. was DENIED from Penn spring 2004. Yet you would think that through AA I would be accepted(which is the common believe. How many times do we see "URM" threads w/ someone w/ a sub 1400 SAT, and someone says, "oh, but b/c you're a URM, you're most likely in"? That's not how it works, experience proves it, and checking the African American box doesn't mean you're in.</p>
<p>Also, I'm from Long Island, and I know what it's like to live in and around affluent neighborhoods and people. Just b/c you're rich doesn't make you smart. You can pay for all of the prep classes, summer courses, etc., but that doesn't make you smarter or more likely of being accepted.</p>
<p>Also, clearly, the problem w/ this thread is GENERALIZATION. Not all blacks are disadvantaged. Not all blacks are unqualified(whatever that means). We are not the universities. Don't try to justify denials or acceptances w/ your own criteria.</p>
<p>round of applause for PENNHOPEFUL</p>
<p>Momsdream, no offense, but why are you spending so much time on a college website when you are successful and making the six-figure income? You said before someone "is still trying to make undergrad". That is sort of what the website is for, so there was no need for that comment. </p>
<p>Anyways, on AA. I feel if you don't have resources, you have to have initiative and find oppurtunities. African Americans are not less intelligent than other races. It's all about the work ethic and what you were raised with. Yes there is discrimination of course, but doesn't everyone face it? Jews, Arabs, Gays, etc.? We cannot keep using slavery as an excuse to gain success. I'm so sick of people looking at us as some sort of pity case, whether or not AA is there. </p>
<p>Also, I think a lot of people automatically think just because a Black or Hispanic is at an Ivy League, they got in through AA or had low SAT's or something. Stop questioning people's success and worry about yourself. Wow, is this what AA is doing? </p>
<p>Sorry for long entry, but w/e. Coming from an African American (Nigerian descent).</p>
<p>speak on my Nigerian sister. Haha... I'm a Nigerian as well with 1550 SATs... and I didn't even realize how unique this was until I came to this site... and then I was like wow...</p>
<p>Honestly, skin color has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to take standardized tests or do well in school.</p>