URMs among the 22000 apps

Colleges & Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>I've been curious about this ever since I read about the demographic breakdown of the apps. I did some research and found that Harvard is pretty much the champion of affirmative action. So this leads me to wonder, will the gigantic increase in URMs apps mean that more of them will be accepted over students who are considerably more qualified? or will Harvard only accept the best of the URMs? </p>

<p>If the former is true then the class of '09 is going to be really diverse. But at the same time I doubt this will happen because it would badly hurt Harvard's USNEWS ranking because SAT averages would drop (sorry for sterotyping.)</p>

<p>Any takes on this?</p>

2

<p>no they usually accept a similar percentage from year to year. that is why it is so competitive for asians because asians really compete against other asians to fill that percentage of the class =P</p>

3

<p>shrek2004, there are no such quotas</p>

<p>finemeal, while I think H would gladly admit every URM it can get its hands on, I'm sure it won't happen because SOMEONE in the admissions office is bound to anticipate the gargantuan backlash from whites and asians (which could potentially spell the end of AA.)</p>

4

<p>Asians are admitted at lower rates than whites or blacks at Harvard and many other elite schools. I think that is a sign (perhaps not definitive evidence) of an informal quota, and thus the idea should not be dismissed so easily.</p>

5

<p>"So this leads me to wonder, will the gigantic increase in URMs apps mean that more of them will be accepted over students who are considerably more qualified? "</p>

<p>Virtually all of the students who apply to Harvard are very well qualified for admission. Thus, when it comes to admissions decisions, Harvard selects students who will best contribute to creating a vibrant, well rounded class.</p>

<p>With that in mind, students of any race with, for instance a 1600 who simply are grinds who spend day and night prepping for the SAT will be passed by in favor of students (of any race) who have something more to contribute to the Harvard community than score grubbing.</p>

<p>Harvard would view a student with a 1400, good grades, and something like a strong history of leadership (that lead to results, not just resume dressing), community involvement, documented interest in research or overcoming major challenges as being a "more qualified" candidate than a student with no ECs or evidence of intellectual passions but whose hook was great grades and a 1600.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I have seen plenty of URMs rejected by Harvard. It's a fallacy that Harvard takes any URM who applies. Among URMs whom I have seen Harvard reject are: a URM with a math score of 750, national ranking in an academic EC, and was a recruited varsity athlete, plus was taking a tough curriculum; and I have seen Harvard reject other URMs with scores of 1250-1450, who got into top 10 and top 20 schools and had good grades (including a salutatorian), and a relatively tough curriculum and minor and even major leadership school roles.</p>

<p>The URMS whom I refer to were Hispanic, Native American and African American. I am an alum interviewer, so this post is based on facts, not rumors.</p>

6

<p>I agree with NSM's comment that Harvard will still seek and only accept the best of applicants, regardless of race. If the number of minority acceptances increases (for Class '09) , I think it would reflect that more qualified minority applicants applied and not that Harvard lowered its standards. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I did some research and found that Harvard is pretty much the champion of affirmative action.

[/quote]
What do you mean by this? Champion in terms of recruitment? Acceptance rates? Attracting the highest percentage of qualified URMs?</p>

<p>Also: Are there really quotas for Asian students - if not, why is the acceptance rate for Asian students assumably lower than the rate for other ethnic groups? Would Harvard accept a 50% Asian class if the Asian pool was particularly strong?</p>

7

<p>Remember: Harvard wants well-rounded classes, which means a class filled with students with a variety of career interests, EC interests and who come from a variety of countries, regions, races, religions, etc.</p>

<p>Keep in mind, too, that virtually everyone who applies to Harvard has a strong academic record. Thus, the factors which most contribute to students' being accepted are the factors that would best help Harvard create well rounded classes. A well-rounded class is not likely to be 50% Asian or 50% black or Native American or Hispanic for that matter.</p>

<p>One problem with Asian applicants is that on paper, they look very similar. Most are pre-med, aspiring biochem majors, classical music players, swimmers, tennis players, and are in academic teams such as math teams. This is typically because their parents push them into those areas and discourage their pursuing ECs such as contact sports and majors such as the humanities, arts and social sciences.</p>

<p>Harvard is not going to fill up its class with violinists, pianists, premed students and tennis players. Therefore, the Asians who get in with the traditional Asian interests/pursuits have to be incredibly good at their pursuits and classwork. They end up competing against the best students in the country. They also often fall short of Harvard standards because they don't show a real passion for their ECs and academics: That's because they have had to ignore their own natural interests in favor of what their parents made them do.</p>

<p>Their grades may be high, but they don't do the extra things or show the passion/enthusiasm that students do who are really pursuing their own interests.</p>

8

<p>NSM, culturally speaking, were those kids detached from their heritage? I think that might have been the problem . . . I mean, how would an acculturated Hispanic contribute to diversity any better than a white from Montana? I'm sorry if this wasn't the case, I'm just asking.</p>

9

<p>I guess that makes sense. The cultural/environmental argument would also explain why URM admit rates are typically higher than that of whites or ORMs--it would probably be because the URM applicant pool is more self-selective, since the parents of URMs generally aren't as pushy (or the URM students themselves aren't as motivated than Asians or whites, for whatever reason).</p>

<p>By the way, NSM, does Harvard practice AA in its admissions process? Do they specifically favor certain races (and not prefer others) to a certain degree, or is the preference given to applicants based solely on how much diversity they can bring to the school?</p>

10

<p>No, the kids weren't detached from their heritages. They were active in organizations and ECs related to their heritage (and organizations unrelated to their heritage), and clearly identified with their heritages.</p>

<p>It is a fallacy that just because someone is a URM with decent scores/grades, etc., they will be a shoo-in for Harvard. As is the case with white and Asian applicants, most URMs who apply for admission to Harvard "qualify" in that they have the grades, scores, and curricula which indicate they could graduate from Harvard.</p>

<p>Even though probably a higher proportion of URMs are accepted for admission than are whites or Asians, there still are many URMs who "qualify" for admission, but will be rejected as Harvard creates a well rounded class.</p>

<p>This is so well known to alums, that I even know a URM alum who has headed a Harvard schools committee who had their offspring apply EA to another college because even though the student has good grades, decent scores, good curriculum, state recognition in a couple of ECs, the alum did not assume that their kid would be an automatic admit to Harvard.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, I have seen URMs get into Harvard with lower scores than is the case with some URMs Harvard rejects. </p>

<p>An example was a student with about a 1250 SAT and stellar grades who had a couple of unusual nonathletic achievements at a national level. The student had a one parent who had attended a community college, and the student came from an inner city school where relatively few students went to college. For the student to have achieved ECs at such a high level indicated a remarkable level of motivation and assertiveness, far more than that of some rejected URMs and other students who came from more privileged backgrounds and better schools, and had excellent, but more ordinary ECs.</p>

<p>I am sure that there also are whites and Asians who get in under similar circumstances -- having risen far above what's typical from students from their neighborhoods or schools. It's just not as easy for me to learn about their backgrounds.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]

It is a fallacy that just because someone is a URM with decent scores/grades, etc., they will be a shoo-in for Harvard. As is the case with white and Asian applicants, most URMs who apply for admission to Harvard "qualify" in that they have the grades, scores, and curricula which indicate they could graduate from Harvard.

[/quote]

Do you know how the SAT scores/GPA of URMs compare to that of Asian and white applicants?</p>

12

<p>I don't know. That info isn't published. </p>

<p>What I do know is that with rare exception, a 3.0 gpa and 1200 SAT are the lowest scores/grades that would give an applicant any chance of being admitted. This comes straight from adcoms. Of course, an applicant would have to have something wonderful and very unusual in order to be accepted with stats that low. This could be having a billionaire parent or having overcome a major challenge such as being homeless. If the only plus the applicant with those stats had was being a URM, it is very unlikely they would be admitted.</p>

13

<p>Wasn't Congress trying to pass a law making it compulsory for universities to publish that kind of information? </p>

<p>It needs to be published...</p>

14

<p>Quote from Northstarmom</p>

<p>"One problem with Asian applicants is that on paper, they look very similar. Most are pre-med, aspiring biochem majors, classical music players, swimmers, tennis players, and are in academic teams such as math teams. This is typically because their parents push them into those areas and discourage their pursuing ECs such as contact sports and majors such as the humanities, arts and social sciences.</p>

<p>Harvard is not going to fill up its class with violinists, pianists, premed students and tennis players. Therefore, the Asians who get in with the traditional Asian interests/pursuits have to be incredibly good at their pursuits and classwork. They end up competing against the best students in the country. They also often fall short of Harvard standards because they don't show a real passion for their ECs and academics: That's because they have had to ignore their own natural interests in favor of what their parents made them do.</p>

<p>Their grades may be high, but they don't do the extra things or show the passion/enthusiasm that students do who are really pursuing their own interests."</p>

<p>As a teenager in a prep school with many asians, and also therefore many asian friends, I am resentful of these statements. I can't believe how general this all is. As a Harvard interviewer, I would think there would be more careful attention put into pronoun use instead of saying "They all do this, They all do that" and perhaps show some more respect for the asians on this board.</p>

15

<p>" Most are pre-med, aspiring biochem majors, classical music players, swimmers, tennis players, and are in academic teams such as math teams. "</p>

<p>Note the first word in the sentence.</p>

<p>I happen to also know many Asians as S goes to school with many and has many Asian friends. Many, in fact the overwhelming majority, are being pushed into premed majors by their parents. </p>

<p>I also have interviewed many Asian students, several of whom have told me that their expect them to become doctors even though they aren't interested in those fields.</p>

<p>There are, of course, exceptions as there are exceptions to every rule. However, what I describe is very typical, and you can find plenty of other posts on these boards, including from Asian students, supporting what I have said. You can find similar statements, too, from admissions counselors. </p>

<p>In at least one book, an admission counselors specifically suggests that Asian applicants diversify themselves by not doing the ECs like classical music and swimming that so many Asian students pursue.</p>

16

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=41956&page=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=41956&page=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

17

<p>Check this out from the archieves, too: <a href="http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?5/49613%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeconfidential.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?5/49613&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

18

<p>To quote the Director of Undergraduate Admissions Dr. Marlyn McGrath-Lewis "All Harvard applicants come in through the same door. There isn't one door for Native Americans, and another for people from Brookline". Brookline is a wealthy suburb of Boston. </p>

<p>Every time I read a comment posted here about "oh so and so must have been a URM and that's why they were accepted with low test scores, you'll get in becaues you're a URM, etc" it makes my blood boil. Those people who waste their time believing they are are being reverse-discriminated against because they are white or Asian should spend less time worrying about "URMs" getting in, and more time about how to distinguish themselves as interesting, intelligent, and the perfect Harvard student when it comes time for their application to walk through that metaphorical door.</p>

19

<p>Umm...I got an email saying MzLover3 had posted:
You seem to be affiliated with Harvard in some way, EAS. Might I ask, are you? </p>

<p>But I don't actually see this response. I probably didn't refresh the page or something, I'm not too familiar with how this site works. Anyway...I am a junior here! Mostly, my affiliation is procrastinating studying for midterms by reading about why students want to get in to Harvard and how can they do so on this site. I guess it makes me less miserable about midterms and puts things into perspective; at one point, I did indeed want to be here subjecting myself to such torture! lol</p>

20

<p>I wonder what percentage of Harvard Asian applicants competed in contact sports...</p>