<p>UR definitely has THE best faculty and the selectivity is incredible, also, for the grad schools, the acceptance rate is very very low like 10% low. And, besides this, the funding it has opens up a lot of research opportunities that of which the professors are very very active with. and to what barrons said, the quality of the professors does make a big difference in the quality of the education</p>
<p>You didn't even say vanderbilt for that matter. You said "private schools" and as someone mentioned earlier I said you were being silly because of the fact that you prefer one to the other doesn't make one better than the other. What I said about some people chosing bob jones over UVa is true. I'm sure people do this, does this mean bob jones is a top 20 university? of course not.
Besides I'm getting the feeling from the initial phrase of "if a mediocre university" that you really do believe these are mediocre universities. Yet I don't quite understand why it is that prestigious business recruiting at McIntire, Ross, and Haas is ahead compared to notre dame. Aren't these just mediocre schools with students not as good as the next private school? I guess firms don't hire the best for the job anymore. Isn't the idea of education to prepare students for the future? That its not just the start but the finish? Perhaps you would prefer a featured US News Admissions Statistics Ranking as oposed to US News America's Best Colleges.</p>
<p>Besides its also very convenient of you to use Michigan's acceptance rate as opposed to Berkeley's or UVa's. Berkeley's being lower than both Vanderbilt's and Notre Dame's and UVa's being only one percent greater than Vanderbilt's.</p>
<p>my one question, i dont get it, so why were elite professors attracted to places like Berklely and Michigan in the first place, since they were public schools?</p>
<p>^I guess they thought of it as charity because they are state schools. "oh no"</p>
<p>
How do you justify such a subjective statement?</p>
<p>Frddy, if you read one post up the "private school" were clearly referencing Vanderbilt, Emory, and Notre Dame.</p>
<p>By "mediocre university" -- I meant any relative unknown university. For the sake of hypothetical it could be Mike Smith University. If Mike Smith University recruited the top professors in their field but continually accepted 90% of the student body, many elite students still would be hesitant on attending. </p>
<p>"People pick Bob Jones over UVA" -- I'm sure they do. This is the worst comparison ever. Vanderbilt wins the cross-admit battles with Michigan. Vanderbilt has higher scores and is more selective. The antithesis is true with Bob Jones and UVA. But my claims are more substantial than this as you can read in my longer post.</p>
<p>The reason I used Michigan was because the kid that made the claim was from Michigan.</p>
<p>You're still conveniently picking on michigan. Because of its high admit rate. But they still probably have more people with higher scores at UVa, Michigan and Berkeley. These state schools are twice or even three times larger than Vandy and ND. Of course there will be more lower scores and there will be higher scores. Lets take berkeley. Their SAT's median is at about 1370. The top half of Berkeley has about the same number of students as all of vanderbilt and has higher SAT scores.</p>
<p>Lets look at GPA. Consider the size of the public schools and look at the percentage of people in the top 10% of their class.</p>
<p>UVa - 84%
UCB - 99%
UMich - 90%</p>
<p>compared to </p>
<p>ND - 85%
Vandy - 77%
Emory - 90%</p>
<p>These percentages include the lower half of the state schools.</p>
<p>So I'm still not seeing why they shouldn't be higher up.</p>
<p>Ok, well, the "THE" may be a lil carried away, but if you look at UR's website with the information about the faculty, you see how qualified they are in terms of education and all...if u want to see some info, i'll give u the link tomorrow or something.</p>
<p>GPA from what schools? mediocre public high schools? My roommate is from Exeter.</p>
<p>So youre telling me that people from mediocre TN high schools with high GPAs and decent SATs dont get into vanderbilt? please. Not even harvard can say that the greater portion of their students went to some prep school</p>
<p>I'm saying GPA can be decieving. Of course, Vandy accepts some of those kids -- just not at the same rates. It would be more difficult for those kids to get into an elite private (Vandy, Notre Dame, etc.) than their state public school.</p>
<p>"And the smaller enrollment allows me to actually meet them."</p>
<p>You can still get to know professors in large schools.</p>
<p>"GPA from what schools? mediocre public high schools? My roommate is from Exeter."</p>
<p>Heh, nothing like some good 'ol elitism. Being rich != being smarter.</p>
<p>Though I may be biased because I'm going to Cornell next year, I think it deserves to be much higher than 15th. I would like to see it in the top 10, certainly above Northwestern and WUSTl. People tend to approach these rankings with only acceptance rate in mind, and Cornell, because of it's size, will never be as selective (in numbers) as smaller Ivies. </p>
<p>I think the list should be something like this:</p>
<p>Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Stanford
MIT
Columbia
Cal Tech
Duke
Penn
Dartmouth/Cornell
Northwestern
UChicago
Brown</p>
<p>I don't know about the rest...Anyway, the point is I have no idea and of course it's kind of pointless after a while because every school I just listed is basically of equal prestige and quality (minus maybe the top four or five, which are more prestigious). But hey, it's fun.</p>
<p>I think it should be noted that approx. 28,000 people applied to Cornell this year, the most of any Ivy League, and it's acceptance rate should come out to about 24% which is pretty freaking low for such a big school.</p>
<p>Let's exam that Vandy vs. Michigan logic. If acceptance rate is a key criteria, we must conclude that both UCB(25%) and UCLA(23%) are 'more selective' than Vandy(38%). In fact, they are 'better' than Northwestern(30%), Cornell(29%), Notre Dame(30%) and Johns Hopkins(30%).</p>
<p>In reality, we all know that the student body at UCB and UCLA are on par with Michigan and UVa. They are 'more selective' because there are more in-state students to choose from in California.</p>
<p>Public schools have a mandate to serve the state residents ... hence the higher acceptance rate. It doesn't imply that the student body is inferior. UCB/UCLA/Michigan/UVa have more smart students in sheer numbers.</p>
<p>If you are interested in engineering, would you pick Vandy and Notre Dame over UCB or Michigan? For business, would you pass over Haas and Ross for .... uh what's the name of the business school at Vandy? How about East Asian studies, social works, information science? I can go on and on... but you get the point, right. "Large" means more facilities, better faculties, and more choices.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Public schools have a mandate to serve the state residents ... hence the higher acceptance rate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've always found that reasoning to be dubious, because if it were true, then you have to wonder why nobody ever applies that reasoning to graduate schools. For example, Berkeley Haas is a public program that has a mandate to serve California business students, yet the Haas MBA program is one of the most selective programs in the country, with a lower acceptance rate than even Wharton, MITSloan, or Kellogg. Berkeley Boalt Law school is a public law school that supposedly has a mandate to serve California law students, yet Boalt has an even lower admit rate than does Harvard Law. UCSF Medical School actually admits a lower percentage of students than do Harvard Medical or Johns Hopkins Med. </p>
<p>That doesn't mean that I think Boalt is better than HLS or that Haas is better than Wharton, Sloan, or Kellogg, or that UCSF is better than HMS or JHU, but it does mean that a public school can be extremely selective. </p>
<p>I think what is closer to the truth is that at the undergraduate level, the top public schools are less selective than the top private schools because the public schools made that choice. It didn't have to be that way. Berkeley could have designed its undergraduate program to be as selective as the Haas MBA program or the Boalt Law program.</p>
<p>This is very simple:</p>
<ol>
<li>Umich has lower average SAT avgs than other top 20s</li>
<li>Umich DOESN'T have a self selecting applicant pool based on it being a state school, having rolling admissions, and being perceived as easy to get into. </li>
<li>Other top 20's have better cross applicant battles</li>
<li>Uchicago/JHU are self-selecting and Berkeley does not support a 60% acceptance rate.</li>
</ol>
<p>Based on these points: Umich is a top 25 but not a top 20.</p>
<p>All schools have self-selecting applicants. What do you guys really mean by that phrase? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Peer assessment (weighted by 25 percent). The U.S. News ranking formula gives greatest weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's academic excellence. The peer assessment survey allows the top academics we contact--presidents, provosts, and deans of admission--to account for intangibles such as faculty dedication to teaching. Each individual is asked to rate peer schools' academic programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished). Those who don't know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly are asked to mark "don't know." Synovate, an opinion-research firm based near Chicago, collected the data; 57 percent of the 4,098 people who were sent questionnaires responded.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Berkeley does not support a 60% acceptance rate
[/quote]
Well, UCB has the same SAT range as Michigan. The reason why UCB and UCLA have 'more selective' acceptance rate is that they have a bigger pool of in-state applicants to pick from. There are nine UC's (six in the top 50's) and you can apply to all with the same form, and many do. So the best CA students go to UCB/UCLA, and down the hierachy to San Diego, Davis/Irvine Santa Barbara, etc. The acceptance rate drops quickly to the 50's and 70's.</p>
<p>I jumped into the discussion because someone said that Vandy > Michigan because it's more selective. If that logic holds, you will have to conclude that UCB/UCLA is better than Vandy, Notre Dame, Northwestern, JHU and Cornell. And I hope no one will dispute that UCB/UCLA/Michigan/UVa are peers.</p>
<p>And so far nobody answer my question: if you were interested in engineering, business, Far Eastern studies, social works, information science..., would you bypass UCB/UCLA/Michigan/UVa and go for Vandy(#18)?</p>
<p>
[quote]
the truth is that at the undergraduate level, the top public schools are less selective than the top private schools because the public schools made that choice. It didn't have to be that way. Berkeley could have designed its undergraduate program to be as selective as the Haas MBA program or the Boalt Law program.
[/quote]
Well, tell that to UNC ... "As mandated by the University of North Carolina General Administration, 82 percent of each freshman class must be comprised of residents of North Carolina." I believe most of the publics have a gentleman's agreement with state legislature to maintain a certain in-state quota at the undergrad level. For example, Michigan try to maintain a 65:35 split. This kind of agreement is not extended to the graduate level (for reasons that are beyond my knowledge).</p>
<p>Sakky,
To answer your question... for the graduate professional programs, the class sizes are much smaller and hence you can be very selective even though in-state students do have an edge for the public law and medical schools.</p>
<p>And so far nobody answer my question: if you were interested in engineering, business, Far Eastern studies, social works, information science..., would you bypass UCB/UCLA/Michigan/UVa and go for Vandy(#18)?</p>
<p>For these 'vocational' areas they are better than Vandy. The publics excel in the more specific areas. If you really want to be an engineer go to an engineering school, not a liberal arts school.</p>
<p>In terms of a general degree I'd say they are all equal to Vandy or in some cases better.</p>
<p>You don't have to convince me that HYPSM are better than UCB/Michigan/UVa ... but Emory, Vandy and Notre Dame, come on... and you can throw in WUSTL too.</p>