<p>You were on the right track in recognizing the difference but very wrong about UChicago…etc lowering their standard to 2As. At the top-level, I think US students, based on past performance of international competitions (IMO…etc), are probably more comeptitive than the UK counterparts (UK has been above average but not great in those competitions…sometimes even worse than smaller places like Singapore or Hong Kong SAR). But even if they were the same, getting an A in any given subject on A-level is really not all that great of an achievement–it’s no better than getting 1280 on SAT or 27 on ACT. If the US were to have A-level and the same admission practice, it’s pretty safe to assume the top-15 would require most, of not all, As. </p>
<p>The level of material is irrelevant; it’s the curve that you should be looking at whe comparing admission difficulty.</p>
<p>“■■■■■■■■ first post. An undergraduate education at a place like Brown or Dartmouth would perhaps be much better than at a place like Harvard.”</p>
<p>Was that aimed at me? </p>
<p>If so - learn to read.</p>
<p>a) it was not my first post on this thread; and </p>
<p>b) since you evidently don’t know if the undergraduate education is better at Harvard, Brown or Dartmouth (which you clearly don’t, as you state it may ‘perhaps be much better’ at Brown or Dartmouth, suggesting you have no experience of any of them), your comment is a waste of space. </p>
<p>If that post was not aimed at me, you might try quoting the person whose post you are referring to.</p>
<p>There does seem to be some arguments for convenience here.</p>
<p>Normally on the breadth v. depth question the inputs from Americans on this site is: “it’s wrong to specialise so early, it’s much better to cover a breadth of subjects like we do in the US”.</p>
<p>Now when the subject is studying in depth the inputs from Americans on this site is: “it’s wrong to cover the breadth of the subject, it’s much better to really specialise like we do in the US.”</p>
<p>It seems as if overall the answer is: “it’s best to do things the way American universities do things because it’s the way things are done in America.”</p>
<p>And one question that still hasn’t been answered is whether the US undergrad in his chosen specialisations will end up having as in-depth knowledge about that specialisation as his UK counterpart.</p>
<p>oldspc , I don’t know which posts exactly led you to this conclusion but if mine was a part of it: I am not American. Actually I’m European which would probably bias me more towards the UK. I think that most people posting in this thread (or the international forum in general) are not American.</p>
<p>
Are we talking about specialization or specializationS? If an American student specializes in ONE subject early on and takes appropriate classes then I argue that the American student will have much more in-depth knowledge than the UK student. However, the UK student may have an average of more in-depth knowledge across multiple subjects. (We are talking about one major here so by subjects I mean for example specialization within in the field of physics). Which, in my opinion, is not useful.</p>
<p>However, if the Americans student simply takes the absolute minimum requirements and decides not to specialize in anything then the UK student is definitely better off due the the more rigorous graduation requirements.</p>
<p>However, we are talking about top-unis here so I would argue that most American students who attend top-universities are probably eager to learn and know what they want. So they will most likely end up specializing in a certain subject and not just try to get by with the minimum amount of work.</p>
<p>Hi oldspc, I’m from Europe and currently live in England, so I’m most definitely not American.</p>
<p>The reason I like the American education system much better than the UK system is that you can have the best of both worlds. You can take a breadth of subjects (handy if you have no clue what you want to major in) but you can also deeply specialize in one subject.</p>
<p>Thomas_ answered the question that you asked at the end very well.</p>
<p>On the subject of UK vs. US education, in some cases, you can expedite your studies through the British system because of the general lack of ‘core’ classes. Of course, there are ways to shorten the time you spend studying in the US through combined BS/MS programs, AP’s, etc, but it is my personal opinion that graduating faster in a certain area is GENERALLY easier in the UK. How this plays into your understanding of quality or prestige is subjective.</p>
<p>On a side note, would anyone like to chance me for Oxford med?
2360 SAT, 770 on physics, 740 bio, 800 chem, 5’s on AP Bio and physics, taking BMAT in november, 3.65 U-GPA, applying from the U.S. </p>
<p>Pierogis and kielbasa as a display of my gratitude =)</p>
<p>LSE and imperial are the best for what they are specialised in, even beat oxbridge
also consider the size of application, population, goverment funds, UK is only same size as texas so it would not be able to keep up pace with US and its education system totally different.
i wouldnt say LSE, imperial is behind any of US unis except 1st tiers, ivy</p>
<p>I’m about to start my AS in the UK, so I may be ‘inexperienced’ when it comes to uni debates but, I have a few friends in both Oxford and Cambridge, a very good friend who’s going to Harvard next yea, friends at UCL, LSE, and Columbia and a sister at Nottingham so I think that might just make me qualified enough to comment on the subject at hand.</p>
<p>I’ll start by saying that the English and American school systems are VERY different almost impossible to compare, I know because I live in New York but attend boarding school in England. This may be news to some of you but among both my English and American friends (most of whom attend small private schools) the impression is that the English system is much harder than the American one, I’ve always thought of that as true even when looking at unis </p>
<p>-With the exception of Harvard (which is undeniably the best University on the planet)</p>
<p>The majority of my schoolmates that choose to go to American unis do so with a popular ‘myth’ in mind:</p>
<p>'If you’ve done your A levels first year of American uni is a piece of cake, you can just chill ‘till second year’</p>
<p>Americans may have standardized testing, more leeway when it comes to switching courses and more hype around their top unis, but that definitely does not make them any better.</p>
<p>And whoever is being mislead by comments about admission into Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, UCL or Imperial being easy. It’s anything but. All of my guidance counselors have told me there’s more chance of me getting into Oxbridge than LSE because of the amount of candidates that apply to LSE and the limited space.</p>
<p>I’m applying to both Brown and UCL next year and I’m pretty sure Brown’s more likely to take me than UCL.</p>
<p>^ artartart, I’m going to have to deny that Harvard is the best university in the world. Just look at student satisfaction rates. I’d say Oxbridge is up there though.</p>
<p>Also, I still think the UK unis are slightly easier to get into than the American ones (especially for you since you’ll be paying the top-dollar overseas student fees). In the United States, recommendations are thoroughly looked at, whilst even my counselor here in the UK has told me that the recommendation done through UCAS is never taken as seriously. Factor in the fact that British students usually apply with only their best A-Level grades (the courses that they are interested in, so the courses they do well at) as well as that extracurriculars are little more than an after thought, and getting into schools like Brown becomes much, much tougher. </p>
<p>For the record, I applied to both Brown and LSE (close to UCL standards, maybe even tougher). LSE didn’t see that I almost failed a math class my sophomore year, but they let me in because they only wanted to see my IB predicted grades. Brown, saw the math grade and promptly rejected me.</p>
<p>^^^
Oh for God’s sake. Posts like the one above do not help people make reasonable decisions about where to study. All they do is entrench the idea that university X is better than university Y in ALL circumstances and for ALL people. </p>
<p>What if, for example, you are a very talented actor and want to audition for plays/films outside of your academic experience? You could then quite rightly choose to attend university in NYC or London, even if you got into supposedly ‘better’ institutions.</p>
<p>And even if we’re only focusing on the academic side of things, some lesser known universities may have one or two programmes that are extremely well-regarded. Ever head of the University of Wales at Bangor? I doubt it. But if you work in marine biology you will have. Ever heard of the School of Oriental and African Studies? It’s got one of the best undergraduate Mandarin Chinese courses in the world. </p>
<p>The point is - it depends on the individual and their interests. Rankings like the one above are solely for prestige whores.</p>
<p>From reading some of your replys I’m guessing none of you ever look at any league tables?
As a student preparing to apply to university, there’s one thing I’m definitely sure of…Harvard is number one.</p>
Thomas already answered this question, but I wanted to contribute my experience as well. Just for the record, I will compare the US system with German universities, but the curriculum at German universities is very similar to that in the UK (students take classes for their major only, you get a Bachelor’s degree after 3 years, etc).</p>
<p>I am rising junior math major in the US. I took 3 math classes at a German university while in high school, which allowed me to dive directly into upper-level classes in the US. After 2 years of college in the US I have already taken as many <em>pure</em> math classes than I would have taken in my 3 years at a German university. By the time I get my degree, I will have probably taken enough math for a Master’s degree in Germany. That is possible because my American college puts much less restrictions on which classes I have to take. As an undergraduate math major at a German university, I would have to take a mix of pure and applied math courses as well as courses in an allied field (e.g. computer science or physics). In the US I don’t need to bother with applied classes, nor am I required to complete a minor (I am choosing to do that anyway, but I don’t have to.) </p>
<p>The US is also much more flexible about accelerating students. In Europe it is rare for students to take college classes while in high school, while in the US that is pretty standard procedure. The US is also much more open to undergraduate students taking graduate-level classes (=> more depth than an undergraduate student would get in Europe). </p>
<p>I prefer the US college system because it gives students a choice whether to study for breadth or depth, and lets them progress at their own pace. Europe is too concerned about making everything standardized.</p>
<p>“I took 3 math classes at a German university while in high school, which allowed me to dive directly into upper-level classes in the US. After 2 years of college in the US I have already taken as many <em>pure</em> math classes than I would have taken in my 3 years at a German university.”</p>
<p>Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but doesn’t this mean that if you hadn’t taken those classes whilst in high school, you wouldn’t have been able to take the range of pure maths classes you did in college?</p>
<p>Following on from that, the average person, who wouldn’t have had the chance to take college-level courses in high school, wouldn’t have been able to take the upper-level classes that you did, and therefore wouldn’t have been able to specialise so heavily. </p>
<p>Also, just a point about taking classes in an allied field - in the UK, it’s considered important to be able to draw links between related fields in research. That’s not considered to be breadth as such - more that you need to have a background in many related fields to in order to specialise in one, since so much research these days is collaborative anyway.</p>
<p>[b@r!um] I don’t know about Germany, but, in addition to the General Institute Requirements (Calc I and II, Diff Eq, and a lower-level elective, normally Linear Algebra), the undergraduate [Theoretical Math option](<a href=“http://www-math.mit.edu/academics/undergrad/major/course18/theoretical.html”>http://www-math.mit.edu/academics/undergrad/major/course18/theoretical.html</a>) at MIT requires only two semesters of Analysis, two semesters of Algebra, one semester of Topology, one senior seminar, and two upper-level electives. That is undoubtedly far less than what would be covered in Oxford’s 4-year MMath course, or Cambridge’s Maths Tripos.</p>
<p>Frankly, I believe there are a few majors where undergraduate education in the US compares favorably to that in Europe. Economics and maybe engineering are examples that come to mind. Undergraduate Math degrees in the U.S are however notoriously less advanced when compared to their European counterparts, be it in the UK, France, or probably Germany. </p>
<p>Keep also in mind that the standard for Math education in Germany is not the 3-year Bologna bachelor’s, but rather the old 5-year Diplom, which most university students still take anyway, just re-named as a “Master’s” degree.</p>
<p>If i wanted to study Russian i obviously wouldn’t go to LSE or Imperial. Nor would i look at Oxbridge, because UCLs School of Slavonic and East European Studies is arguably one of the best places to study in the world. Is a UCL Russian graduate any less impressive than an Economics graduate from the LSE?</p>
<p>^So what? Apparently, all that “advanced courses” at the undergraduate level don’t seem to translate to good Nobel production or better research output. Have you ever wondered why? American education at the undergrad level is more about training your thinking skills and liberal education. In real world, you don’t need all that technical background to succeed and most of the time, you’ll never use them. But you will use your thinking skills constantly. The reality is thinking skills stay with you while most of those technical knowledge fade in memory. Do you really remember what you learned in your thermodynamics? Most people probably forget almost everything and can’t say the 3 laws in plain English. Advanced courses are really just useful for PhD candidates, IMO, and I don’t think you can dispute the level of PhD programs in America. It may be more “favorable” to you to just narrow in a specific field and take more advanced courses there but I am sure most Americans are happy to have more room and freedom for electives.</p>
<p>I agree with your remarks that the US undergraduate math curriculum <em>requires</em> fewer classes than the undergraduate curriculum in Europe. However, students are free to take more classes. My college requires 32 courses to graduate and only 10-12 courses for the math major (depending on initial placement). However, no one is stopping me from taking 25/32 courses in math. It’s really up to me.</p>
<p>bruno123, you are right that the standard degree in Germany is a Master’s degree. But I think it is kind of unfair to compare a 5-year BS/MS program in Germany to a 4-year BS program in the US. Even though, I would have taken enough pure math classes for an MS degree in Germany when I get my Bachelor’s degree in the US (though I would be lacking applied courses). </p>
<p>Laylah, if I had not taken those classes in high school, I would probably be 1 or 2 semesters behind where I am now. However, I would still have one additional year at the undergraduate level to go deeper into the subject than most undergraduate students in Germany. And while it is uncommon for European students to take college classes in high school, it is not so uncommon for high-achieving American students. I participated in a math program at Cornell this summer, and most of the 20 students there had taken a number of college math classes while they were still in high school. Many states even have entire programs that allow talented high school students to complete the last 2 years of high school at a college, taking college classes for high school credit. I think we should consider the option to take college classes in high school part of the standard American college system rather than an exception.</p>
<p>I wasn’t aware that taking college-level courses at high school was so prevalent in the US. That’s certainly something lacking in the UK system. I think access to such classes would be a good option for advanced/high achieving students; it’s a shame the AS/A-level system is so rigid.</p>
<p>[Sam Lee] Unlike in engineering or natural sciences (physics, chemistry, biology), I don’t see the US having a particular advantage over Europe, even at the graduate level, as far as mathematics is concerned. It suffices to take a look at the list of [Fields Medalists](<a href=“Fields Medal - Wikipedia”>Fields Medal - Wikipedia) to see that countries like the UK or France, whose population is only 1/5th of the population of the States, are, in relative terms, overrepresented among the laureates. </p>
<p>In any case, your point is well taken. Generally speaking, doctoral dissertations in the US are indeed deeper than their counterparts in Europe in most fields. The main reason for that IMHO is that, in the US, it may take up to 6 years or more beyond a bachelor’s degree to get a doctorate, whereas in Europe, because of funding constraints, one has only 5 years beyond the BS/BA (four in the UK !) to finish a PhD. With more time and less pressure to graduate early, students can go deeper in their research, publish more papers, etc. </p>
<p>America’s advantage in graduate school, which comes basically from better funding and a bigger pool of talented (domestic ** and ** international) students to draw from, has little or nothing to do IMHO with the “liberal arts” education at the undergraduate level. If anything, a liberal arts undergraduate degree, at least in fields like math and sciences, is a disadvantage rather than a plus for someone who plans to go on to get a doctorate after college.</p>