USC Tops UCLA in Rankings

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Southern California
81

As a current senior applying to colleges in California, it’s been very interesting to read @WWWard 's description of the East Coast perspective on UCLA. I am a National Merit Semifinalist, likely finalist, and as a result will probably get at least a half-ride from USC. Nevertheless, the thought of applying to USC has never even remotely crossed my mind - with in state tuition, UCLA is just so much cheaper for what virtually everyone in my surrounding environment considers to be an equal if not superior academic experience. 70k base tuition is hard to swallow.

I do know of several students at my high school that have USC as a dream school (especially several prospective film arts majors… obviously, UCLA cannot compare in the arts), but UCLA is undoubtedly the college that more hopes ride on. Every year, at least one or two of our most talented students (2400, fantastic ECs, beloved by teachers, etc.) turn down admissions to Ivy League/similarly elite colleges to become a Bruin. I would imagine that in most public high schools across California, UCLA is synonymous with excellence.

82

We live and I work in Florida, but my personal client base includes the Southeast and Mid-Atlantic states. I personally went to JHU and its grad school, but my friends and main peers went to a # of Ivies and also to schools like Vanderbilt, JHU, Ga Tech, MIT, Northwestern, Emory and Duke. Almost all of them grew up in locations that were east of the Mississippi River. So Northwestern was the college the furthest west that any of them ventured to. That is the extent of my personal sphere of influence (the people I know well and their kids and kids’ friends)… but it is broader by far than just Florida. It extends from Miami to Buffalo, NY and now into Eastern Canada… and as far northwest as Chicago and as far due west as Texas.

There are tens of thousands of high school seniors all dreaming of going to their in-state flagship university… whether it be the U. of Alabama or U.F. / FSU or U. of Georgia or UCLA, etc. California, Virginia, North Carolina, Michigan and Texas are some of the states where such a decision to attend an in-state flagship public university would also equate to attending an elite / well-respected college. In the case of most states, including Florida, that is really not the case.

My experience has just been that those (albeit from Eastern states) looking to attend an elite / well-respected university tend to name the Ivies and colleges like Vanderbilt, Duke, USC, UVa, Ga Tech, Emory, Rice, Northwestern, MIT, Carnegie Melon, CalTech and Stanford. Those open to attending public universities mention UVa, Ga Tech, U. of Michigan, U. of Texas, U. of N.C. and sometimes Berkeley. I have only recalled UCLA being mentioned once during the past 10 yrs or so… by a current high school senior who was friends with my daughter. She recently toured USC, UCLA, Berkeley and Stanford on her trip out west. So - to her - all four colleges are on par with each other.

I have repeatedly witnessed the shock here on CC that this seems to cause some California residents. They seem to think that everyone outside of California looking west and thinking about elite universities have to consider UCLA or at least think more favorably of UCLA than USC. That has simply not been my experience at all. But take heart… as a state, you at least do have one of the very best (in my opinion, likely the very best) public university system. I certainly would have preferred my daughters choosing to attend Berkeley or UCLA over U. of FL or FSU. Neither even considered any other colleges in California other than Stanford and USC however. And thankfully they each love attending USC.

Good luck @thinkingfastslow Hopefully you land at the right college for you. That is really all that matters. Outside opinions, rankings, etc. are all just “white noise” from beyond that will not have any impact on your individual college experience. So my advise is visit your finalists and choose what is best for you and you alone.

83

@blueskiestoday - What survey talks to 170 kids per state? Also, what is an obscure study? The World Reputation Rankings are probably the largest and most prominent international ranking of global universities in the world. So confused by your response…

84

WWward - I think the shock comes from the fact that UCLA has been the most applied-to college in the country for 20 years, UCLA is ranked in Princeton Review’s top five “dream schools for college applicants”, and usually in the top 10 “dream schools for parents”, and last year, Niche reported that UCLA was it’s #1 “most interested in” school for high school students, based on their online Niche profiles.

I get that you don’t like public universities much, but I find it hard to believe that no one you have ever spoken to thinks of UCLA in the application process. Every piece of national data seems to indicate the exact opposite. Having said that, UCLA’s mission is to educate Californias, so they probably do not do much recruitment of Floridians (understandably). There may be a lot happening outside of your sphere that you are not aware of.

85

@ktjordan78 Obviously, we are each limited to our own spheres of influence. All that I have ever offered are my own impressions and experiences. But - they are as stated… regardless of how strange such seems to Californians. And I have been to California many times. I have seen first hand how Californians in general perceive themselves vs the rest of the nation. So “the shock” makes sense given the spheres prevalent to the average Californian. But while you are the biggest state in terms of population, you are still only one of 50.

Yes, there is no denying the raw # of applications received by UCLA. It is the most by any public or private university.

There is also no denying that USC receives more applications overall than any other private university.

Thankfully, those looking to attend a college or university, whether public or private, all have choices. There are literally 100s of excellent potential choices. Between my two kids, 22 different colleges were applied to.

UCLA is an excellent choice for many. But… let’s not forget that 61% of those record #s who are applying are also California residents. And another 18% of those record #s who are applying are International applicants. Thus, only 21% of those applying to UCLA are from the other 49 states. And that breakdown really seems to be the part that most CC comments via stunned UCLA supporters are overlooking.

79% of all UCLA applicants are not from those 49 states that Californians seem to overlook. And if you split the nation generally into West vs East, it is likely then that less than 10% of UCLA’s applicants come from the Eastern half of the U.S. I actually suspect that the # would be closer to 5% or less… as the western states bordering or near California likely account for more than their fair share of UCLA applications.

By comparison, USC’s #s are: 44% from CA, 14% International and 42% from all other states (double that same percentage for UCLA - 21%). So, as a percentage of its total application pool, USC is twice as attractive to non-California residents. The points that I have been alluding to thus seem to be supported by the actual #s supplied by each institution.

Sorry if that still seems shocking…

86

You fail to realize that UC’s limit non-CA admittees/acceptances, so that does put a damper on the amount of non-CA applicants to UC’s. USC has no limitation as far as I know as a private school.

87

@WWward I don’t know how this diverted into a numbers game about the percentage of CA applicants vs East Coast applicants. You made a statement about how UCLA doesn’t have the same reputation elsewhere as it does in California. I provided data that UCLA was ranked high above USC for many years by US News (who at the time was the only group providing such rankings). Only once has USC be ranked one spot above UCLA in those rankings. Every other time it has been below (and I think twice tied). Other international reputation rankings place UCLA’s academic reputation globally far, far ahead of USC (#15 vs the 70s)The Princeton Review recently released its “Hope and Worries 2017” report, listing the top 10 “dream schools” for students, in order:

  1. Stanford
  2. Harvard
  3. MIT
  4. NYU
  5. UCLA
  6. Columbia
  7. Princeton
  8. Berkeley
  9. Penn
  10. Yale

Another Princeton Review “Hopes and Worries” list of dream schools for parents went as such:

  1. Stanford
  2. Harvard
  3. Princeton
  4. Yale
  5. MIT
  6. NYU
  7. Columbia
  8. Michigan
  9. Notre Dame
  10. UCLA

Now don’t get me wrong. USC is a wonderful school, and has done a LOT to be more competitive with UCLA in recent years - including having a stellar football team, which high school students definitely respond to. But to give an impression that UCLA’s academic reputation is in any way below USC’s is, to be blunt, just Trojan tr0lling at its most petty. You have definitely drank the cardinal and gold kool-aid!

88

Sorry, that distinction would go to Boston University with 54,190 applications. USC is #2.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2015/09/17/10-colleges-that-receive-the-most-applications

89

Another note: Due to the vast cost differentiation between UCLA (and all UCs) and USC for Californians, I do know that USC recruits quite hard in other major markets like Texas, New York, Illinois and Florida. I am sure your perceptions of USC are direct reflections of successful recruitment and marketing campaigns over the years.

Cheers

90

I’m not an alumnus of any of these fine institutions, but I don’t know of anyone anywhere, other than your D, who would say that Stanford is “on par” with USC, UCLA or Cal. No one.

91

What do a global research ranking or a publication from the 90s have to do with how east coast families perceive USC/UCLA today?

92

The cost differences probably account for some of the California versus non-California views on UCLA versus USC.

For California residents, UCLA appears to be less expensive than USC for all family income levels, based on their net price calculators. The difference increases greatly at high income levels (where USC keeps getting more expensive while UCLA tops out at California resident list price), and for those whom CSS Profile (used by USC but not UCLA) leads to unfavorable financial aid calculations. Note that even the half tuition scholarships at USC still leave a net price higher than UCLA’s California resident list price.

For non-California residents, UCLA offers no need-based financial aid, so USC is less expensive at most family income levels (particularly at the lower end), except for the highest income levels where USC’s net price exceeds UCLA’s non-resident list price.

93

I see The Higher Times 2017 ranking UCLA at #15 in their World University Rankings, with USC at 66…
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/world-ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats

94

@jjalfonso Perception is almost a complete result of reputation. International reputation, historic reputation, and so on. But you are right - no one should base their opinion of a school on any one ranking - or really any rankings at all!

But if you want to go around saying that USC has a universally agreed-upon better reputation than UCLA, I’m gonna call your bluff. It simply isn’t true.

95

Rankings offer only one part of the picture (and as has been pointed out, they are often manipulated). You will only know if a university is right for you when you actually visit and spend time on campus. My son got into several wonderful UCs. Berkeley would have been the best for him given his CS major, but after spending a day on campus and sitting in several massive, overcrowded lecture halls with other recent admits, he decided on USC. He has no regrets.

UCs are a great bargain for California residents, but you get what you pay for.

“I’m not an alumnus of any of these fine institutions, but I don’t know of anyone anywhere, other than your D, who would say that Stanford is ‘on par’ with USC, UCLA or Cal. No one.”

Perhaps, but Stanford’s rep has taken a big hit thanks to the Brock Turner scandal. The judge, a Standford alum, who heard the case is about to removed. Even before that case hit headlines, I was touring the campus and struck by the chalk walk decrying rapes in the community.

96

Have any posters made universal claims? Maybe I missed it among the 7 pages of this thread…

Someone stick a fork in this.

97

Stats as of 2014, but Brown, Dartmouth and Harvard had more incidences of rape reports:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/06/07/these-colleges-have-the-most-reports-of-rape/?utm_term=.5a2cd69063c5

Living in proximity to the Stanford campus, I know of no slip in their reputation.

98

@sushiritto U.S. News is likely just not that up to date with its info. USC actually had over 56K applications this most recent cycle… so still #1. But clearly BC is close behind, as you suggest. Even if USC is #2 vs #1, my point remains the same… USC being one of the most sought after private universities in terms of the # of total applicants… and with a higher percentage of those total applications coming from across the nation.

https://news.usc.edu/119065/trojan-family-welcomes-8980-exceptional-students-for-fall-2017-admission/

I also doubt that many non-Californians even realize that UCs limit non-CA acceptances. I certainly was not aware of such. But then again, my kids were not interested in applying to any UCs. Most applicants apply thinking that they will get in or hoping so. I doubt that those truly interested in attending UCLA are refraining from applying simply out of fear of being denied due to some cap related to them being residents of other states. Schools like U. Texas and U. Virginia likely then do the same, but it certainly did not discourage my kids or their friends from applying to those schools as Florida residents. I do not see the average applicant being discouraged from even applying as you suggest. And I certainly do no think that UCLA’s applications are therefore automatically dampered by applicants from the other 49 states arbitrarily self-evaluated there chances and voluntarily refraining from applying. It is just as likely that they aren’t that interested in attending there.

Also… my daughter did not say that those 4 colleges are on par with each other. A friend of hers, a current high school senior, thinks it. But I do know of kids who got in to Stanford & then turned Stanford down to go elsewhere. And I am quite sure that most Californians would perceive Stanford to be superior to the schools they chose. Thankfully, applicants get to apply and then choose themselves among the schools they were accepted to… and they do not need to answer to anyone else.

@KTJordan78 Well, various ranking sources like US News, Niche, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, etc. rank USC higher. And you have mentioned other sources ranking UCLA higher. I really could not care less about such rankings. My kids and their friends have never cited a single ranking source when explaining where they wanted to attend – other than Niche’s, as those student reviews do seem to sway them. None have ever mentioned the Princeton Review - period. Many applicants care a great deal more about the perceived quality of student life than any ranking related to comparative academic standing. Yes… they do want it to be at an elite / well-respected school… - of course, but then they also care about weather, campus, dorms, school infrastructure and resources, school spending on improvements, school spirit, athletic reputation, greek life, alumni network strength, internships/jobs, etc. And most that I am aware of also want it to be a private school. When all those considerations get melded together, that is how schools like USC, Duke and Vanderbilt start seeming a lot more appealing than the Ivies and schools like Carnegie Melon that fail to provide all that they are seeking… all the elements that combine together to generate the total college experience. It certainly factored in to my own daughter choosing USC over Princeton, Emory, Rice, etc. I attended Johns Hopkins and visited friends while in college at many similar schools. I certainly wanted more for my kids than the limited college experience I received. I purposely urged them to consider schools like Duke, UVa, Northwestern, Vanderbilt and USC instead.

But overall… I have been talking about the “perception” of USC vs UCLA in terms of my spheres of influence in the Eastern U.S. I am not hung up on rankings or comparisons. But those who are can clearly cite where USC does well too. Or those UCLA-backers who feel compelled to are free to continue citing rankings that favor UCLA if that is your thing.

If you are a current applicant or future applicant, my advice is to barely consider rankings at all. Sure… maybe you would like your future college to be deemed Top-50 or maybe Top-100. But other than some general benchmark, the real factors influencing your decision should be extremely personal. Visit your finalist schools in-person. Think about it all… academic reputation - especially in your field of interest, campus, climate/weather, social life, extracurricular options/activities, the arts, athletics, alumni networking, career placement, etc., etc., etc. And then choose wisely based on factors important to you and/or your family. Four years is a long time, and you only get one shot at making those four years the best possible. So please choose wisely. And good luck…

99

@jjalfonso1 Direct quote from @WWWard: “Yes… kids from Florida or basically anywhere east of California, parents of kids going to or who went to USC, various ranking sources like US News, Niche, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, etc., everyone I know personally who went to an Ivy or to any Top-25 school, and especially anyone who favors a private university versus a public college all think that USC is better.”

That, my friend, is what you call a universal claim. Totally unfounded and out of touch with reality.

WWWard is a two time USC mom (I believe. Could be a dad) and the rivalry is real, kids! Good to have school spirit!

100

Exactly, @jjalfonso1 Indeed.

@ucbalumnus Good points… especially how that could impact the financial viability of attending UCLA as a non-resident.

And Dad, not mom.