To be honest, I had never before heard of Williams College or any of those fancy East Coast LACs until my S1 started the college admissions process. Granted, I’m a STEM person and only focused on research universities.
But if I, as a fairly knowledgeable American w an advanced degree, entirely raised and educated on the East Coast, with 2 teenagers in elite East Coast boarding schools, had never heard of Williams college, then the typical Joe on the street probably hasn’t even either.
Hindsight is 20/20. When I was making my own college decision, I opted for the selective private university + loans, turning my nose up at the full ride merit scholarship at public flagship. I went on to grad school and accumulated further loans. When the time came to pay back those loans, my regret was that I could have reached the same end via free public flagship AND could have graduated from an undergrad school I didn’t have to “explain” to people not in the know, plus I could have had a helluva good time.
My recollection as a HS senior was that for about 2 months there was a lot of competitiveness about who was going where. After graduation, everyone went their own way and started new lives with new friends, and nobody cared what the other HS classmates were doing. I saw the same thing happen w S1. At the end of senior year, 2 months of intense oneupsmanship, then poof!!! the hype is over. Everyone moved on…
My learning in this:
Don’t make a dumb economic decision in that 2 months hype period on account of vanity.
@OP
Just because u can afford an uber expensive school, u obviously think it’s not worth it; otherwise, u wouldn’t be trying to talk your D out of it in favor of a less costly ACCEPTABLE school. Yeah, it’s no fun being the bad guy and saying No. But you did buy her the pony she wanted at age 4, either.
My opinion…keep the “money incentive” out of the college selection process. If you decide your kid should take the Direct Loan amounts…then fine. You can do,what we did…have your kid take the Direct Loan amounts…and say NOTHING until graduation day. Then give the payback as a gift. Not having a $300 a month loan payment will allow,your kid some flexibility in terms of their own budgeting…and they can use that extra money to,buy their own car…although it won’t be a $40,000 one!
GMT, I had never heard of Missouri S&T until I started hiring for an aerospace company and learned that it is considered a top mechanical engineering school. I had never heard of Reed until I started hiring speechwriters and communications specialists and learned how rigorous and writing intensive the Reed curriculum is.
We live in a big country and for some people, attending a college within a 200 mile radius from home that “everyone” has heard of is important. For other people it’s not. And if you hire for a living as I do, some colleges will not be on your radar at all (due to geography, academic focus, academic standards, type of student) and others- maybe some obscure colleges- will be top of mind.
The guy on the street in Atlanta, Georgia, may consider BYU a school for LDS kids way out in the middle of nowhere. But if you work in corporate recruiting for any big company, and run a management rotation program which often asks young employees to transfer to Peru or Singapore or Dubai during their first few years- you know BYU. It’s not hard asking a young employee to move to Paris for a while (although with some security concerns right now it’s harder than it was two years ago). But finding young employees who have lived overseas, are fluent in more than just English, and are incredibly flexible about their living situations (i.e. doesn’t need to be an apartment that looks just like the one they are moving from) is sometimes hard. Add in some functional expertise (BYU’s solid finance and accounting programs) and believe me- easier to head to Utah as part of your recruiting strategy.
I’m not advocating paying full price if you can’t afford it. I’m not advocating taking out loans if you don’t need to. But I’m suggesting that a parent who can afford any of their kids choices, to dismiss out of hand some options JUST because there are cheaper alternatives- maybe you want to slow down.
There’s a reason why some colleges are going to be generous with your kid with merit aid. If that happens to be a school that fits- then bingo- you’ve won. If it’s a school that doesn’t fit- then you have a discussion.
If your kid has high stats there will ALWAYS be the cheaper option. And some kids won’t care because what they consider “fit” they can find anywhere which is terrific. And for some kids it might matter.
Either you think it’s worth it to pay for it, or you don’t. Just the fact that you are willing to play these incentive games is acknowledgement on your part that your D can more than adequately achieve her goals at the cheaper option.
And yes, I work for a big company and I do screen job candidates from ALL OVER the world (I’ve been working foreign assignments on 3 continents in the last 10 years). But I am in a STEM field, so I never see hothouse LACs on resumes.
If grad school is in the cards, then my advice is to conserve cash during the undergrad years. Once u get the higher degree, no one looks twice at your bachelors degree unless it’s universally blingy OxBridge or HYPSM.
It is incredibly difficult to judge the true vibe of a school from visits, even overnights. Often the vibe a kid gets is based more on who they meet, prestige, and location. Kids can find an inspiring professor or course at a wide range of colleges. While I think super elites can open some additional doors, not clear how many kids are inspired at such a school that would not have been at one several rungs down the prestige ladder.
One of my kids got into 2 really good, but not super elite, schools in/near Boston full pay and a very nice merit scholarship to a similar school in a much less attractive city. He really.liked one of those schools, but it just wasn’t worth the extra money. He got a great education and certainly was stretched and we did not need to raid our retirement accounts and still take a vacation. A not fancy, not extravagant family trip each year is important to our family. And we drive our basic model cars into the ground, but with long driving commutes they do not last as long as I would like.
In our case we set a budget and that includes an incentive if our D chooses the best financial package because that one is a full ride and will free up money that would have otherwise gone to college costs. Our D is very cost sensitive herself, loves to thrift shop, has taken to heart what loans mean to her future and understands something else…the college/university system in the US has become in large part a game, one fueled in large part by the incredible emphasis on rankings. Any school that is giving her a merit offer of any kind is doing so with the intent to have her and her stats come to their school and be part of their freshman class and to feed into their rankings. Schools that won’t offer any merit may want her, but they don’t need her.
Our budget with its incentive package on one end is to our family like shopping anywhere else. What is the best value for the student. To find the best value, i.e. things she wants, likes, feels happy and comfortable with for the next four years and as a launching pad to her future, versus net price after merit, we did what any value shopper does and what we do with any major and most minor purchases in our house, we did all kinds of due diligence.
Joining CC and becoming immersed in the knowledge we need here and through other resources, researching majors and schools online and in person, visits to 15+ campuses, talking to alumni we know or asking the schools of interest to set that up. I have taught my D to be a value shopper, not a cheap one since we all know there are plenty of cheap things one can buy that aren’t worth their price. We have emphasized value and ROI to her with the level of value and return indicators being ones that we talk to her about and research with her, but that in the end are hers to decide.
There is a budget, there has been research done ad nauseum and plenty of money spent up front in that process to maximize her ability to make an informed value decision when the time comes, and part of that includes an incentive that would benefit both her and our family. In that context I think it is a very workable part of the process and a good lesson for her to follow when she makes future decisions.
GMT thanks for the advice and you are right, I was having doubts and that is why I started this thread. I am fully aware that my daughter can achieve her goals at a less prestigous school, but Blossom has a point in regard to instinct, and being inspired by your surroundings to explore and achieve even more. This past summer, my daughter was awarded a full ride scholarship to attend a four week program at one of these prestigious institutions. She was truly inspired there, and hence, it is one of her top choices. Since we can afford it, I just need to get over the cost and not be overly distracted by all the other “shinny” offers. Could she be inspired at one of the other less expensive schools? Perhaps. She has been invited to attend special events at some of these colleges promoting various programs like their honors college. She’s walked away unimpressed from some but others have spiked her interest. So when all the offers are in, we will reevaluate each schools, but it will be her call in the end.
As I mentioned in the “skin in the game” thread, we asked our daughter to consider the cost difference ($100,000) between the two schools she had narrowed her choice down to and decide if the more expensive school was worth that much extra to her. We didn’t offer her the money, so it was OUR money she would be saving, but she’s a kid who would treat our money pretty much the same as she would her own. I was very comfortable doing this because I saw her agonizing over the decision, so knew it was very close, and we did tell her that we would pay for either. I just wanted her to be cognizant that there was a major price difference over four years. She chose the less expensive option, but we would have been fine had she gone with the pricier school, as long as she had considered the finances and decided it was worth it - to her. FWIW, she will get the money we saved at some point, but we did not tell her that.
@TuckerTroy this has been an interesting theoretical discussion. It’s somewhat in a vacuum, though since you haven’t mentioned the schools. (More about that in a minute).
I agree with the posters who have pointed out how confusing the scenarios of the various incentives are. I also agree with the poster who pointed out how much she received from her education at Swarthmore and her husband from Princeton. At the risk of having this thread devolve into an argument about whether HYP are “worth” the cost, I just want to share my experience. I was a very serious student and went to a HYP for undergrad - my parents were full pay and were thrilled to send me there. It was an incredible experience in every way and I am forever grateful to them for making it happen and not using it as a means to teach me a lesson about the value of a dollar, which I picked up very quickly when I was out on my own supporting myself.
Now my DH and I are in the same position and our DD will matriculate at my alma mater this fall. She was admitted early action in December and had submitted applications for a few full-ride scholarships at top 25 schools, which she withdrew in January when she accepted her SCEA offer of admission. She is an extremely high-stats kid who “shows well” so it’s not inconceivable that one of them would have been offered to her had she remained in the hunt.
We are extremely blessed because we have fully funded 529s to pay for all 4 years plus a little left over for grad school, for both of our kids. There is nothing we would rather see the money used on than paying for the school that admitted her. Some things are worth the price tag. I am not dictating what I think is proper for any family other than my own, but just providing a reference point using the concrete example of a specific school.
I asked about the schools under consideration. You mentioned in another thread that your D’s faith is very important to her. If, for example, a school such as Georgetown or Notre Dame (with a combination of great academics and high percentage of students of your family’s faith) are on the table and your D feels strongly that they’d be a great fit, why would you want to nickel and dime her out of that opportunity? There are many other ways to pass on your family values about the proper stewardship of your resources.
You sound like a thoughtful and caring parent. Thanks for starting this post and best of luck to your DD as your family makes its decision.
We gave our kids a budget, and told them if they went over, they would have to take out loans. If it was too far over, we would not let them attend, as we didn’t feel any undergraduate school is worth a large amount of debt.
This led to some inefficiencies in applying for kid #1, as we didn’t realize that every school would consider us full pay, regardless of the realities. I took some good schools off the table after the acceptances were in as I was not willing for either the kid or us to take on the debt.
For kid #2 we were smarter and didn’t bother applying to the expensive privates that didn’t give out merit aid.
We also told both kids that if the schools they chose came in far enough under budget, they would get a $20K bonus after graduating, or if they needed a fifth year it could pay for that.
DS picked the IS flagship, got some merit money, and used his bonus to buy a car.
DD picked an OOS flagship with a significant merit package that made it cheaper than our IS flagship. She just graduated and is mulling over what to do with her money. She will likely buy the family car she drive in school from me and bank the rest.
Was it manipulative to make such an offer? I don’t think so - I truly didn’t care whether they picked more or less expensive schools, as long as they were good schools. Did it affect their choices? Maybe… life is full of choices, I don’t see any harm in having kids thinking about how the results of a decision can affect you years down the road. And at that age I’m not sure they really understand what it means to have $20K in the bank vs. $20K in debt, we can only try to help them understand. FWIW, both kids had jobs in HS and had to pay their own car insurance and car and other expenses, so hopefully they had some idea of the value of money.
It is so easy to make suggestions when it isn’t someone else’s budget. I also know from our own senior year admissions process that the year can be one of shifting sands with regard to expected and unexpected merit offers. My daughter’s first admissions with merit offer came from a school that she had thought she wanted from her freshman year of high school but each merit offer from subsequent acceptances was greater in value. Then one of her matches but financial reaches offered her full tuition at the 11th hour (last April) and that was unexptected and shifted the sands again. From that experience, we learned that “it isn’t over until it’s over” since that last offer was literally a few days before May 1. And, my daughter is so happy at this last offer school that it is almost crazy great. Really, wait until you know what you are really comparing then decide.
Thanks all for setting me straight. I got distracted by all the shinny new offers and came up with my convoluted idea. Even though cost is a concern, I lost focus on what is most important; finding the right place where my daughter will grow and flourish. I am not comfortable sharing all the schools she is considering until all the decisions are in, but will post an update when that time comes. I am grateful to the CC community for sharing your experiences and your thoughful responses.
Great thread! Timely info for all those with some great offers in hand but full financial aid packages and the potential for other offers still to come.
We also have given our DS a budget and he has multiple offers within that budget. Graduating without debt has been his goal but there is one school that he just cannot quite let go of. It would mean manageable debt, applying his co-op earnings to help cover school and more distance from home than he originally thought he wanted but it just might be the right place. It is very tempting to offer him an incentive to decide now so that the process can move to the next phase, but we will take @NorthernMom61’s advice and try to sit tight until all the information is available and then let him decide.
" Business and premed, so medical school may be in her future"- Since med. school is in a future, save money on UG. Tell D. to attend at the cheapest UG, there is no reason to pay for college in case of future med. school. However, the college that chose better be a good fit otherwise to insure a greater chance of success on demanding pre-med road. My own D. applied only at colleges that we knew from our research would offer Merit awards. All of them did, but as you mentioned also, the various degree of it. She ended up attending at in-state public that offered full tuition and had great 4 years there with experiences and results that went well beyond our family expectations. She fell in love with the school on her first visit, but visited different schools several times to make sure that her choice is a good match for her. In appreciation for her hard work and wise decision choosing her college, we paid for her medical school and she graduated from medical school last year debt free among the 16% who are debt free after graduating from medical school.
Also, keep i mind that medical schools do not care about the name of your college. D. had great choice
It is definitely not bribery to say “we can spend this” and give the child some of the savings if she comes in under budget. In fact, I think it really takes away the incentive for the parent to push for the cheaper option because the parent is going to be “out” the money regardless.
I missed the part about medical school. That doesn’t change the basic strategy of waiting until all decisions and offers are on the table and talking about which college works best for the family. But you may want to stretch out the timeline - look at what happens with medical school / whatever grad program costs are involved. I wouldn’t say pick the cheapest undergrad because I don’t know your child’s schools or your finances. I’m suggesting to expand the scope of the discussion beyond undergrad - that’s all. That may change your daughter’s mind from the most expensive to a less expensive choice.
It is not easy to make this choice Tucker troy, especially if you “have” the money, but are still dependent on an ever shifting job market and volatile stock market to fund retirement, not just buy a new car or redo the kitched. Spending that extra money can mean you have less security going forward. My youngest was very clear that he didn’t think full pay at his top choice was worth the $80 to $100K it would cost us. Have the conversation with your daughter about why you are concerned. Again, you would not be asking her to give up Notre Dame to go to live at home and go to community college, but perhaps to take a merit offer at a “lesser” , but still very good school.
But Blossom is also correct in that sometimes the biggest merit offers are from schools that may not be a good fit intellectually. Most of us, not all by any means, left money on the table either because our kid did not go to an in-state public or because the biggest merit offer was a really poor fit.
OP as a parent I resonate with the “skin in the game” idea, and there have been some excellent points brought up in this thread. Some are contradictory but that is ok because in the end, it’s all about what works best for YOUR family.
I would urge you to look with your D for a win-win situation. You do not want her to feel you are using money to manipulate her choice. Yet, it is YOUR money. Decide what you are comfortable with. Then be consistent, clear and respectful of her final decision. If she chooses the expensive school, she should know ahead of time – with a dollar amount – that her future options will be more limited. If she chooses the less expensive school, she has still “won.” There will be more $ for her future. Or even for internships, travel, etc.
Like other posters, I think that the loan idea is not a productive one if you plan to pay them off. It would be different if you give her a graduation check and SHE decides to pay off her loans. However, if she does go for the more expensive school, yes, she should take out loans. And work in the summer. Managing money is a skill and no matter how much or how little it is, you want her to start learning it.
You don’t want her to experience her parents as capricious or controlling. We would all love to give our kids endless opportunities, and sometimes it is difficult seeing them make choices. Make this a positive experience for her, and for yourself in being realistic and honest in communication.
I am surprised you were inspired to make your child responsible for $27k by the draconian antics of “skin in the game” dad, who could afford to put his kids through college, but thought it was better to make them pay tution to teach them a lesson. Why $27k? It seems random. There is absolutely nothing wrong with cokids contributin soemthing towar their education. When I went to college, as a commuter, my dad paid tutition, I paid for my books, car insurance, and gas. I worked, it took me six years to graduate. I never felt that my contributin was too difficult, but I am pretty sure it wasn’t the 80’s equivalent of $27k. If yiu can afford to put your child through college without saddling your child with significant debt, then you should. Your kid can probably expect to earn less than $50k a year after graduating. So you want your kid to pay back more than half a year’s salary? Never mind living expenses, etc… I just don’t get this train of thought. If you couldn’t afford it, I would think differently.
" And work in the summer. Managing money is a skill and no matter how much or how little it is, you want her to start learning it." - This dream may and may not happen. “Work in a the summer” is a dream that has nothing to do with the reality in our hometown, where even volunteering positions have waiting lists. Was not possible for my D. Good that she got the job on campus and worked during school years. But these were pennies, pocket money. Nothing will come close to the Merit awards, nothing at all and summer jobs are not there in most places anymore. D. applied at many many places for the dirtiest jobs. Nobody even bothered as much as to be heard in response, none.
On the other note, we did not care to teach her “managing money” skill and I was really concerned…for nothing. Once she was on her own, she was absolutely fine!
If the parents want to make the kid’s and their own life less financially stressful, the best is to attend the college on full tuition Merit or close. Since we are talking about a pre-med here, they all are very top caliber students that will be offered full tuition Merit / full ride at several places and one or few may fit the student as much or better than any other place. Let’s face it, all other solutions will create much more tension and “working” is more for the sake of experience and adding some skills, there are no real money there, these pennies will not create a littlest dent in the tuition payments…and how much a pre-med can work? They have to complete tons of medical EC’s and they have to have very high college GPA, spend time preparing for the MCAT, go to interviews… all during regular school year.
