School Selection Help

Parents Forum
1

Hello,

I’ve been lurking on CC for literally years reading conversations and getting as much information as possible for my children’s college years. Thank you to all the parents and students who have so generously shared their knowledge and experience on this site. I have learned so much and am hoping you will be willing to help someone just starting this experience with their children.

My oldest is starting high school this year. I know it might sounds like we are perhaps being over-prepared in starting the process now, but with 3 children heading to college in the next 7 years - our family is in the situation of needing to be very thoughtful as to how we structure the college search starting with our oldest and making sure we are all on the same page when it comes to finding the best matches.

Some stats:

1st child - high school class of 2020
2nd child - high school class of 2022
3rd child - high school class of 2023

Our biggest challenge is going to be paying for college. We have quite the college bill pile up coming due in the next 10/11 years, and that is the reason we are trying to get ahead in trying to guide our children to their best (affordable) choices.

So, after that huge introduction (thanks to those still reading, it is only going to get longer so thanks for your patience), here is my question:

What schools should we put on our initial list for oldest?

Some of info to help:

We will have about $35K a year to pay for college. Maybe $40K if everything falls into place, but $35K is the safer number to work with. This is the number we will have for each child (they each have about 35K per year) unfortunately - we have several years of overlap with the children so it would be very difficult to find more money. I’m pretty sure this puts most highly selective colleges off our list as we have run NPC calculators which gives us an EFC of 99K. So, meets 100% need colleges/universities (while wonderful for many) won’t be all that helpful for our list. We need colleges that offer significant merit, or are within our target price point.

We live in the midwest. Oldest does NOT want to stay in the midwest. Would prefer either international (bilingual French/English, starting German studies), or warmer/sunnier year-round weather (south or west).

Oldest has one very strong EC which takes up a lot of time/effort. Plays musical instrument at very high level, may be looking at conservatories, but does not want to limit college search to solely music major schools. Also, conservatories, by and large, are extremely expensive - so we are looking at the music as a hook but not the strongest hook out there. We are aware that there are some conservatories that are free - however they are lottery schools so while some are on the list - that is not the main plan. Also, oldest is fairly practical and not sure if would want to teach music (which is what many professional musicians must do to pay bills, even if playing professionally (symphonic music). So, while we do have some “lottery ticket” conservatories - this post is not going to concentrate on that kind of list - we are looking for schools outside of conservatories with good music programs that fit our price limits.

Oldest starting high school taking the most rigorous course load available, except 1 level down from most rigorous for maths ( On target to complete Calculus BC by end of high school, not MV). If everything continues on pace, will have 8-10 AP classes by graduation. Has always had a fairly high GPA but not a 4.0. I expect that to continue and would estimate we would be looking at a 3.75 - 3.85 uw by the end of high school, again if things continue as they have in the past (best case scenario). Not grade conscious kid, not expecting that to change. Loving the kid on my couch and realizing that kid is never going to strive for the 4.0. :wink:

Took Explore test (ACT based) as high school entrance exam. Scored a 24 composite (highest score possible is 25).

Right now, we have on our preliminary list:

McGill University
University of Alabama
University of Maryland - College Park
Edinburgh University

As you can see, it has been difficult to get a good list going. Please throw us some ideas, I know there is so much knowledge here and maybe I can stop plodding though affordable colleges that would be good matches solo. I feel like I’m trying to reinvent the wheel, and I’m not an engineer. thanks!

2

IMO it is too early to put any schools on your list for a student starting high school. It is wise to keep thoughts of savings/affordability in the back of your head, but at this point it is impossible to predict what any student’s stats will qualify him/her for, if interests/desires will change over the next few years etc. at this early point.

3

@happy1, thank you for your input on how we’ve chosen to begin this process. I wish it felt too early, lol.

However, knowing my child, it makes more sense for us to spend time now delineating the parameters and being able to offer concrete ideas than it does to wait until there is actual pressure to have “all the answers” at Junior/Senior year time.

Telling my 9th grader that affordability is an issue without any specific schools that fit the parameters is about as helpful as giving a vague “we’ll make it work” answer to a Junior/Senior creating a college list. Being able to point to schools that offer programs tailored to our student’s [current] interests that are also affordable makes a better case within our family on why it is important to consider cost as well as program. It also prevents the “dream” school mentality (hopefully) because it begins the conversation with the fact there are multiple issues at play when finding good match schools. And that affordability does not necessarily mean a lack of options.

As a musician, my oldest is well versed in a long timeline, and in building piece by piece. Oldest has been working on one concerto for over a year now, just getting to the point of integrating all 3 movements of the piece into a cohesive whole that is moving ever more near to performance ready (as opposed to performance ready parts performed in contests/auditions/workshops). And yet, oldest will probably still be performing this piece 3 years from now, still trying to perfect it for successful conservatory auditions. Because that’s how music works. We can’t look at the process as something that will start closer to the audition date. Those conservatory auditions are to lottery ticket schools, especially taking into consideration our financial price point. And those schools aren’t even on a possibility list for most high school aged musicians unless they’ve spent the better portion of their childhood learning their instrument(s) and preparing for that moment.

Maybe that’s why now is the right time for our family to start a list. A list we can refer to as high school goes on, grades/scores become clearer, interests solidify. Some of the list will most likely become superfluous, as it does for all college applicants. But we hope it will be the “gut check” list that asks the question - is oldest moving in the right direction? are options opening up and getting shut off? Are the goals changing?

4

I understand where you are at and of course you should proceed as you see fit. I would still say that as long as you have affordability ideas firmly in place, you can set exact parameters and look for the right matches for his interests, aptitudes, and desires in a college a bit further down the road for reasons I noted above. But good luck as you go through the process. It is great that you are so on top of things early on.

5

it is not too early to start planning. At least you will not be a parent who will have to tell their student, after being accepted at their dream school, that it is unaffordable. Without stats it is impossible to list schools where merit aid is likely. Also taking out a modest amount of student loans is not a bad thing to consider.

if your oldest ends up wanting a music school McGill’s Schulich school of Music would be an excellent and affordable option.

6

@TomSrOfBoston What I am looking for is like 3-5 more McGills (super easy right?) :)). That is oldest’s preference right now (for music or not - which is one of its strengths), we are very supportive and would love it to be “the one” because it hits all our criteria…but we don’t want it to be the “only” match. It is such a great university, but we can’t count on it.

Is there any place that has: If you are looking at n school, think about x,y,z as well?

7

Well, there’s at least one other McGill at the University of Toronto, which is probably a stronger institution, on average, across all the disciplines. The University of Waterloo is world class in engineering, computer science and math at about the same price, and I think people on the West Coast have high regard for the University of British Columbia. That’s four McGills right there.

There was a story a year or so ago about American students going to university in Germany at what seemed like outrageously low prices (and taking all of their classes in English, to boot). If your child has an interest in German culture and language, but wants to study something technical, that may also be worth exploring.

8

@JHS Thanks for the suggestions, the issue with UoT (for us) is the higher tuition than McGill in the programs of study our student is interested in. Tuition alone at Toronto starts at $31K in areas of interest (and goes as high as 41K in programs of interest) without living expenses. Even with the exchange rate (not guaranteed), it takes the total COA above what we know we are comfortable paying. It is a great school, and Toronto is an awesome city…just too expensive. I will definitely check out the other Canadian universities but the European vibe of Quebec province is a big draw for McGill, along with great price tag.

We’ve started investigating the German university programs, they are super cheap and tempting. Very different set up for study and that is one of the things we need to investigate further. How much college “experience” does oldest want/need versus a more self directed type of study where location (International) trumps college community. Don’t know yet which is why this avenue still open.

9

I had some ideas for you then went back and read your post and saw the part about being from the midwest but your child not wanting to stay in the midwest. Still it is worth a look at your in state schools as affordable options that depending on what state you are in may offer a lot of what your child is looking for. My S just graduated from our in state flagship that has one of the best music schools in the country and we were lucky enough that he was able to get a conservatory level education at in state prices. Also, my D started her search wanting to go somewhere warm and is now happily attending one of the coldest schools in the country :slight_smile: So those types of criteria sometimes shift and change during the course of the search process. So I guess what I’m saying is I would not completely discount your in state schools at this point because they are often a good affordable option. Some of the specific schools that came to my mind that might fit the bill for you are also located in the midwest. So for a more general suggestion I would say at this point it might be beneficial to look at a few “types” of schools with your oldest to get a feel for some general preferences such as large state schools, smaller midsize universities, LACs. And then look at schools in different environments, urban, suburban, rural, and see what appeals then maybe you can gradually narrow your search based on some preferences. It’s hard to suggest specifics because without knowing stats it’s hard to predict where your oldest may qualify for merit aid and based on your financials it looks like one strategy may be targeting schools that will offer merit aid for your child’s stats. For the years when your kids are all in school together or 2 are in school at the same time you may qualify for some need based aid. There are many LACs that offer merit scholarships and also have strong music opportunities for students that want to continue to pursue music without majoring in music.

10

@beebee3 : I didn’t realize there was a big disparity between the tuitions for international students at Toronto and McGill. That wasn’t true in the past – maybe a little, not a lot – and I certainly wouldn’t count on that being true 4-8 years into the future, much less even longer for younger children. Toronto is probably somewhat more expensive than Montreal, but also a place where it’s easier to work part time.

As for the exchange rate, when the time comes you can buy a hedge pretty cheaply if you want to lock in a rate for up to a couple of years.

11

@cellomom2 I wish my oldest wasn’t so dead set against the midwest, because as you say - there are a lot of great, affordable choices. Our state is not the poster child for affordability, though, so it is pretty easy to rule it out. And both spouse and I went out of state for college, so we see a lot of value in trying a new place during the college years.

Did your son go to Indiana? Because I have been pushing that amazing school, especially for music, but oldest’s response has been less than enthused. It works in everything but location so it’s on my list…unfortunately, it is not the school that is going to make oldest excited about affordable options (too isolated, even after pointing off Indianapolis is only 90 mins away). I’m hoping it will grow on oldest, but not holding my breath. Though these kind of schools is why we started this process now. The longer each part of the puzzle can be considered, the better some schools may begin to look and compromises made.

We haven’t really visited many places (only those colleges where we have friends who teach or attend) because it did feel too early to start visiting. Perhaps I will drag oldest to some other midwest campuses that would be on my list to see if exposure to some of the specific schools might make the midwest as a college location get put on the table. Though I will admit to being pretty happy inside when Northwestern and Notre Dame were both struck from ever being under consideration by oldest (happiness purely because they are completely unaffordable to us, to say nothing of the lottery aspect to admission at both). University of Chicago was a hit, but isn’t affordable (and another lottery) and we all were ok with that. It’s always nice when someone doesn’t want what would be impossible to have.

12

My son went to UM, though Indiana was a consideration for both of my kids because with a relatively lower starting tuition for OOS students and scholarships it would have been less expensive than UM even with in state tuition in michigan. In the end my S was admitted to IU for his academic degree but not for music and my D ended up choosing a LAC. My suggestion to visit some different types of schools that may be in your neck of the woods was to get an idea of the types of schools your oldest might like before you invest a lot of time and money in visiting schools that are farther away. Is IU close enough for an easy visit? It is a beautiful campus and the town is really cute with some fun restaurants and shops close to campus. The music school adds a lot culturally for a school that is not in a large city. There are lots of performances going on all the time. Not to hard sell it too much, but I had a negative image of IU because my sister had started there and hated it so much that she dropped out after a week, but I and both my kids loved it when we visited and my son did a summer program there when he was in HS and had a ball. Both of my kids changed their opinions of some schools on their lists after visits so if it’s not too far afield it might still be worth a visit for you. Some of the other schools that had come to mind when I read your post are Lawrence- LAC with a conservatory that is open to both majors and non majors and opportunity for merit scholarships (that is where my D is attending), and St. Olaf and Oberlin- also strong music and merit opportunities. There are probably similar type schools in other parts of the country but I am just more familiar with the midwest schools having explored them more. University of Rochester is a school that has a conservatory and apparently also has merit scholarships. At schools with conservatories or music schools such as UR, Oberlin and IU it would be important later on down the line to know what opportunities are available to music majors vs. non music majors. If he wants warm weather maybe check out UMiami and the Frost school of music. Rice and Vanderbilt might be reach options, my impression is that it takes fairly impressive stats to get merit at those two schools but the possibility of merit does at least theoretically exist.

13

Make sure to read this subforum for the music major. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/

You won’t be able to figure out colleges until you have a SAT/ACT score and junior year gpa…

Have you tried using the Supermatch tool (look over on the left of this site)? You put in your scores and what you want in a school, and it gives you ideas:
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_search/

For Merit scholarship opportunities check:
'I’m interested in schools where I would be well above average, to increase my financial aid opportunities"

Run the Net Price Calculators at colleges of interest to get an idea of actual cost for YOU.

Here is a list of automatic full tuition scholarships:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/1348012-automatic-full-tuition-full-ride-scholarships.html#latest

14

Ones that come to mind that would have some merit monies and possible major (and non major) music monies that may fit your stats are that on our radar are Muhlenberg, Ithaca, University of Puget Sound. Flagships, depending on the state can be very competitive gpa and score wise so the music may not be enough. I would consider looking at some of the directional schools, land grant schools or lesser flagships where significant money might be offered on the talent side however many may not be in the most desireable locations. I would also look at any exchange schools that are an option

The stats will drive quite a bit, you’ll have a much better feel at the end of next year and again after sophomore. While I understand the desire to look now, it is a bit hard to say. We have focused on schools that have decent programs but are not uber competitive as S17 will not be a music major. Lucky for him, in general, his instrument is in demand so that helps.

15

Not really south, but south of the Mason-Dixon line, how about Gettysburg College? Great with meeting need. Best of luck to you!

16

Not sure why you are looking at University of Maryland College Park as they offer VERY LITTLE merit money for OOS students and costs are up to 40-50K yr…

The good thing is many schools offer merit money for music albeit you would need to participate in their music programs on some level… we were told if the school has a School of Music then you most likely need to major in music to get $$ if it is just a department of music then they can usually offer non music majors $$ for music participation

Take a look at Temple University - they are on the rise in rankings, offer generous merit money and have a fantastic Music program… University of Miami also comes to mind…

My advice would be to wait and see what your children do academically and are interested in during their HS years before picking any particular schools,

but yes, international schools in Germany, Italy, France, Canada etc do seem to be much less costly

17

$35k per year per kid? That opens up a LOT of schools that offer merit in the 20-30K range.

18

@eandesmom I just finished reading your thread about your son’s search, it was super helpful and was one of the threads that finally made me stop lurking and start asking. The music/not music (as major) question is going to be the big determining factor in figuring out the final (senior year) list.

@bopper thank for the link to the music major section - I didn’t realize it existed on college confidential (too much information available here, sometimes hard to find all the resources!) I have started devouring the threads over there for more info.

@JHS yes I hadn’t realized the disparities on tuition for university to university in Canada when we started looking but its there. I would love to know more about exchange hedging though…could you send me a link? Obvs when looking at international schools knowing more about this option would be extremely helpful.

@runswimyoga Just really looking for oldest right now and those interests are pretty firm: music & linguistics have been main focus. The only reason I brought up the other two was in terms of explaining the budget and the constraints thereof (didn’t want to bog the conversation into a “with an EFC of 99K, why can’t you come up with more per year?”). Will check our University of Miami and Temple, thanks for the suggestions!

Thank you again to everyone who has commented thus far - I truly appreciate you taking the time to help. Another quick question…we’ve sort of been assuming that grades/standardized testing scores (% wise) would remain fairly level - has that been most people’s experience or did your child’s grades or standardized test score jump up and slump down unexpectedly during high school?

19

Do not assume that the percentiles on standardized tests taken in middle school will be representative.

If your kids are lopsided, the disparities between math and verbal are likely to increase by HS. Many parents who assume that their “97th percentile kid” will stay there are surprised to watch a weak verbal score drag the kid down a few years later.

Grades is a crapshoot frankly and depends on the HS, grading policies, how compliant your kids are, etc. If your kid is at a HS which has 27 valedictorians and in general, is generous about grading- yes, good grades in MS are predictive of HS. But if your HS is more of a tough love place where you have to actually excel to get an A- well, you know your kid.

20

Yes, it has been our experience that grades and test scores can take unexpected turns. This was junior high, but one kid who had had straight A’s for the last three semesters just quit turning in homework for second half of second semester of 8th grade. The grades took a sudden, sharp dive, with little time for correction. Fortunately, it was 8th grade, but the math grade is on the high school transcript. Another kid was very sick, and had some added emotional stress as well, when she took the SAT and ACT on consecutive weekends. Another kid seemed to do great in classes until just before the end of the semester, when they would suddenly be in the 89-91% range, with everything depending on the final. Another scored quite low on her first ACT. She then decided it mattered, studied before the retake, and brought her score up dramatically. It’s all worked out so far, but It can be hard to predict, which is why people are saying you are planning before you have enough solid information. In addition, the two of my kids who have finished high school had huge, and I’d even say unexpected changes in their interests over those four years. The presumed art major is now quite happily studying engineering, and the future nurse is planning on Economics.
You are right to consider costs now, get a good handle on how merit aid works since you’ve already determined that colleges won’t think you have need, and set your kids’ expectations as far as what the future college lists will and will not include in terms of budget. The trouble with planning this far ahead, is that in addition to your kids’ interest and stats, college costs will increase, and individual colleges will change their merit policies over the next couple years before it’s time to actually apply.