USNWR Rankings Adjusted for Teaching Excellence-More Relevant/Reflective for Students

College Search & Selection
21

<p>Xjis,
To your earlier comment (# 11) re using data from different years, I understand your concern and concede that there may have been significant changes (up or down) at some of these colleges. As the Teaching Excellence survey was last done in 1995, that is our only data point on this measure. </p>

<p>For PA scoring, here is the change in PA ranking from 1995 to 2008 for some colleges where I have the information for both years: </p>

<p>7 , Emory
6 , U Chicago
4 , Wash U
4 , Notre Dame
3 , Princeton
2 , UC Berkeley
2 , U Penn
2 , Vanderbilt
2 , Georgetown
1 , Caltech
1 , Dartmouth
1 , U Virginia
1 , Carnegie Mellon
0 , Harvard
0 , Stanford
0 , MIT
0 , Columbia
0 , Cornell
0 , Brown
-1 , Yale
-2 , Northwestern
-4 , Johns Hopkins
-4 , U Michigan
-5 , Rice
-6 , Duke
-6 , UCLA</p>

22

<p>Finally a list where Duke is on the bottom. I think you are starting to see the light hawkette.</p>

23

<p>midatlmom,
While you and I have had our differences, I'm not sure what point you're accusing me of in this thread. </p>

<p>My intention was to show the ranking effect of substituting one measure of faculty (Teaching Excellence) for another (PA scoring), keeping all other elements constant. In doing so, I think the results very effectively illuminate the schools that are best known for their dedication to undergraduate education.</p>

24

<p>"My intention was to show the ranking effect of substituting one measure of faculty (Teaching Excellence) for another (PA scoring), keeping all other elements constant. In doing so, I think the results very effectively illuminate the schools that are best known for their dedication to undergraduate education."</p>

<p>So how is this measured?</p>

<p>How many students participated in the teaching excellence study of 1995?</p>

<p>How many from each school?</p>

<p>How were these students chosen?</p>

25

<p>dstark,
I don't have the methodology on hand. Do you know the answers to your questions?</p>

26

<p>"dstark,
I don't have the methodology on hand. Do you know the answers to your questions?"</p>

<p>classic osu alum response.</p>

27

<p>"I don't have the methodology on hand. Do you know the answers to your questions?"</p>

<p>No I don't, but I'm not the one posting 13 year old student surveys. :)</p>

<p>"dstark,
I don't have the methodology on hand. Do you know the answers to your questions?"</p>

<p>classic osu alum response. </p>

<p>I like OSU. ;)</p>

<p>Of course, I like Michigan. :)</p>

28

<p>I will not comment on that keefer, other than if that is true then it explains a lot.</p>

29

<p>

What about eliminating the Alumni Giving, which you have claimed in other threads doesn't really belong in the ranking?</p>

30

<p>That's easy to answer UCBChemEGrad. Duke is ranked highly there, she won't eliminate it.</p>

31

<p>ucb,
Of all of the metrics in the USNWR rankings methodology, IMO alumni giving is one of the most inappropriate measures being used. Despite the strong performance of publics like Georgia Tech, U Virginia and W&M, this measure definitely hurts the publics and does not reflect the passion that many school alums feel for their school. </p>

<p>I could pull it from my spreadsheet, but I hesitate to do so because then I'd end up wanting to tweak every measure and that would lead to even more complaints and charges of bias for or against this or that college or group of colleges.</p>

32

<p>^ Not really...if it would give you a better sense of how the universities rank by your objective and selective subjective data and leave out "one of the most inappropriate measures being used", doesn't that "improve" a ranking in your eyes?</p>

33

<p>^actually i agree. i kinda want to see the results from it.</p>

34

<p>Hawkette, you like objective data. The objective data you post isn't the only objective data that exists about schools, correct?</p>

<p>The objective data US News uses isn't the only objective data about schools that exist either, correct?</p>

<p>It is possible, if not probable, that there is plenty of objective data that might be relevant to students when choosing a school that neither you or US News mentions, correct?</p>

<p>It is also possible that subjective data trumps objective data when trying to pick a college, correct?</p>

<p>Let's say the following list is accurate and the number 1 school is better than the number 2 school and so on.</p>

<p>Let's say I get accepted into all these schools and I choose to go to the school ranked number 25, will my intelligence or education suffer?</p>

<p>If not, then what difference do the rankings make? If so, how will my intelligence or education suffer?</p>

<p>1 , 3.95 , Princeton , 5 , 2 , 0 , 3 , 3 , 12 , 1
2 , 5.50 , Yale , 10 , 3 , 0 , 9 , 1 , 2 , 5
3 , 6.50 , Harvard , 17 , 1 , 4 , 3 , 1 , 8 , 6
4 , 7.00 , Dartmouth , 1 , 7 , 1 , 15 , 7 , 11 , 3
5 , 7.45 , Duke , 7 , 9 , 0 , 3 , 12 , 14 , 2
6 , 7.70 , Stanford , 6 , 5 , 2 , 13 , 7 , 10 , 9
7 , 8.95 , Brown , 2 , 5 , 1 , 18 , 7 , 24 , 7
8 , 10.30 , U Penn , 26 , 7 , -1 , 1 , 7 , 8 , 8
9 , 11.45 , Caltech , 19 , 20 , -5 , 2 , 7 , 1 , 28
10 , 12.00 , Wash U , 22 , 17 , -3 , 7 , 6 , 4 , 11
11 , 12.05 , Rice , 4 , 15 , 1 , 15 , 13 , 24 , 13
12 , 13.50 , Columbia , 26 , 9 , 2 , 10 , 5 , 16 , 15
12 , 13.50 , U Chicago , 12 , 20 , -2 , 6 , 24 , 7 , 22
12 , 13.50 , Notre Dame , 9 , 3 , 4 , 21 , 15 , 38 , 4
15 , 13.55 , MIT , 26 , 9 , -2 , 20 , 3 , 4 , 10
16 , 13.90 , Northwestern , 18 , 13 , 0 , 7 , 19 , 12 , 27
17 , 14.65 , Emory , 13 , 26 , -7 , 10 , 15 , 17 , 12
18 , 17.20 , Cornell , 26 , 15 , 2 , 14 , 15 , 17 , 17
19 , 17.90 , Vanderbilt , 15 , 26 , 0 , 10 , 26 , 15 , 31
20 , 19.80 , Johns Hopkins , 26 , 20 , 3 , 22 , 24 , 3 , 17
21 , 22.55 , Tufts , 24 , 18 , 3 , 25 , 15 , 35 , 41
22 , 23.10 , Georgetown , 24 , 9 , 4 , 38 , 19 , 35 , 23
23 , 24.15 , U Virginia , 11 , 13 , 4 , 36 , 26 , 57 , 36
24 , 24.50 , Carnegie Mellon , 26 , 32 , -3 , 17 , 29 , 22 , 36
25 , 25.10 , Wake Forest , 20 , 26 , -1 , 38 , 38 , 6 , 21
26 , 25.95 , Lehigh , 26 , 31 , 4 , 19 , 26 , 47 , 13
27 , 26.65 , USC , 26 , 35 , -1 , 28 , 19 , 40 , 15
28 , 29.30 , Brandeis , 26 , 26 , 3 , 32 , 36 , 47 , 19
29 , 30.85 , W&M , 3 , 18 , 5 , 46 , 31 , 106 , 36
30 , 31.25 , UC Berkeley , 26 , 25 , 4 , 38 , 14 , 40 , 117
30 , 31.25 , U Rochester , 26 , 40 , -2 , 32 , 35 , 19 , 66
32 , 31.30 , UCLA , 26 , 24 , 6 , 42 , 19 , 26 , 117
33 , 31.85 , U North Carolina , 20 , 32 , 2 , 50 , 33 , 31 , 46
34 , 35.05 , Case Western , 26 , 46 , -10 , 36 , 40 , 20 , 93
35 , 35.35 , Boston Coll , 16 , 20 , 5 , 69 , 29 , 69 , 41
36 , 36.20 , U Michigan , 26 , 26 , 4 , 69 , 23 , 29 , 83
37 , 37.10 , NYU , 26 , 37 , -1 , 30 , 34 , 38 , 167
38 , 39.45 , Rensselaer , 26 , 37 , 1 , 55 , 48 , 40 , 66
39 , 40.60 , Tulane , 26 , 73 , -10 , 32 , 48 , 47 , 34
40 , 42.20 , Georgia Tech , 26 , 65 , -6 , 53 , 44 , 46 , 24</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
-6 , Cornell
-6 , Johns Hopkins
-7 , UCLA
-8 , MIT
-9 , UC Berkeley
-11 , U Michigan

[/quote]

Heh, now I see why Hawkette doesn't support the PA score. The list above just so happens to include some of Hawkette's least "favorite" schools...
JHU, Cornell and Michigan... </p>

<p>while this list:

[quote]
7 , Notre Dame
7 , Tufts
6 , Rice
5 , Wake Forest
5 , Lehigh
5 , U Rochester
4 , W&M
3 , Duke

[/quote]
more than resembles Hawkette's "favorites".</p>

<p>I more clearly understand the method to her madness. ;)</p>

36

<p>I recognized this a long time ago UCBChemEGrad. That's why I constantly mention PA.</p>

37

<p>

The other problem with the "objective" data that USNWR presents is it takes raw objective data and asigns weights to certain categories and then creates a "rank" number for the data. </p>

<p>The process is quite subjective in assigning category weightings.</p>

38

<p>Dstark,
IMO different individuals can come to different conclusions about what is the right college destination for them, regardless of the ranking. To the degree that one values the datapoints that USNWR uses in their methodology and weights them similarly, then their rankings would be appropriate to use in making a college selection (assuming the personal fit requirements were also met). As applied to an individual’s circumstances, the frequent error that you and I both have long seen on CC with regard to USNWR rankings is the literal use of this order and the broad application of this ranking to declare 1st from 2nd from 3rd and so on. I would agree that this is a misguided approach and conclusion for an individual selection.</p>

<p>Having said the above, I do believe in some absolutes that I believe most enhance a student’s chance for a premier undergraduate education. I believe that the college environment can importantly shape the student experience and that is why I believe that the measurement of these external factors has some validity in comparing one college to another. What are those absolutes?</p>

<ol>
<li> Student quality-I prefer smarter classmates than not.</li>
<li> Size and nature of the classroom-I prefer smaller classes taught by professors and not TAs.</li>
<li> Quality and nature of the instruction-I prefer that teachers have a commitment to undergraduate teaching (and research as well if that is their thing) and that the college recognizes teaching skill as an important characteristic in their hiring and promotion decisions</li>
<li> Money-I prefer a college that has ample financial resources and a willingness to use them to support undergraduate education.</li>
</ol>

39

<p>By the way, Hawkette's favorite data, the 1995 classroom excellence survey, was obtained by asking college administrators, provosts, presidents, etc. (the same people who are responsible for the PA info and whom Hawkette thinks are wrong, not very knowledgeable and/or misguided) about the top schools for teaching. </p>

<p>Here is the link to a post by Sybbie (it's a few posts down on the page) that describes the survey--</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/384217-focused-teaching.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/384217-focused-teaching.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

40

<p>midatlmom,
Perhaps you missed this from my post # 10 in this thread,</p>

<p>"My personal preference is that neither [PA or Teaching Excellence] is included and the rankings are compiled using solely objective data, but if we're forced to use subjective inputs, my preference is for something that is most relevant to the undergraduate student's experience on that campus."</p>