UToronto Grade Deflation

Student Lounge International Students
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<p>How bad really is Grade Deflation in the Life Sciences? I just don't think it makes sense that only 15% of students can get an A, possible but implaussible and just plain retarded in my opinion. Is this true or more of just a rumour?</p>

<p>I'm doing my 1st year of Life Sciences at a community college, and yea it seems to be pretty brutal to other people (even for those at top Universities); however it just comes naturally to me and I'm just sailing through. My average is about 85%, I'm looking to transfer into Neuroscience for my 2nd year. UAlberta is my first choice, UToronto a possible second.</p>

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<p>Why is it ■■■■■■■■ that only 15% of students get A’s? At UofT, they don’t care about your grades or your future career aspirations, they care about fostering intellectual curiosity. </p>

<p>The grade deflation is pretty bad compared to other schools especially first and second year, after that, it really isn’t that bad. One of my professors from Stanford said that if he were to give an B- to a student at UofT, he’ll have to give at least a A-/A/A+ to a student at Stanford.</p>

<p>Neuroscience isn’t offered at UTSG, you might have to enroll at UTSC which is a lot easier if you’re worried about grade deflation.</p>

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<p>Being a top school I imagine that you have many students of high intellectual capability at UToronto. What if you have a class full of brilliant students which class got a raw score of 85%+, and only 15% of those students will actually get that A (isn’t that’s ridiculous)? Even Princeton at least allows 35% of them to get an A.</p>

<p>Could you elaborate about how UTSC is easier with regards to grade deflation, is there no grade deflation over there?</p>

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<p>Your premise is solely based on assumptions. </p>

<p>“Being a top school I imagine that you have many students of high intellectual capability at UToronto.”
False. Canada’s admission policy far different from America’s. Admissions in Canada are not standardized and do not share the same holistic approach (some exceptions;UofT exempt) America has in terms of undergraduate admissions. UofT is not a very selective school, hence the high first and second year drop out rates and the large student population. To assume that each student is “highly intellectual” is very fallacious thinking. The majority of the students here have the intellectual curiosity of a cadaver. </p>

<p>“What if you have a class full of brilliant students which class got a raw score of 85%+, and only 15% of those students will actually get that A (isn’t that’s ridiculous)?”</p>

<p>Fatal assumptions once again. You’re assuming that classes usually meet and overachieve beyond the university mandated C average. That’s not the case. Most classes are bell curved up because the professors/TAs are notoriously:
a) Hard
b) Picky
c) More Abstract</p>

<p>If classes do go beyond the “expected” C average, professors (usually the associate ones) make it their mission to make the final exam much more challenging because:
a) They think the students are finding the tested material to be too easy
b) They’re going to get fired or penalized for not meeting the academic standards at UofT</p>

<p>UofT doesn’t hand out A’s at whim, they make you earn it. I cannot say the same about other universities. One of my best friends went to one of the HYPS for the same program as me, and she was unable to keep up with most of the tested material at UofT despite being her being one the Dean’s list, year after year. </p>

<p>“Even Princeton at least allows 35% of them to get an A.”
That’s great for Princeton. Keep in mind, Canadians have a different marking scheme and have larger classes than Ivies. In addition, American schools usually have much more of a holistic mark breakdown (i.e labs, exams, tests, quizzes, assignments etc) whereas at UofT it’s usually a combination of one or two things (Labs, exams). </p>

<p>“Could you elaborate about how UTSC is easier with regards to grade deflation, is there no grade deflation over there?”</p>

<p>UTSC does not usually bell curve unless the class averages are below 60-70%. For whatever reason, their students usually meet the required standards.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t worry about grading schemes, if you do the work and get help with the TA/Prof, you’ll be fine. Schools with minimal bell curves in Canada, still meet the notorious C average anyway. </p>

<p>At UofT, there won’t be classes where you can simply cruise by during the school year and then cram for 12 hours and still ace the exam. Your grades at UofT, are usually a reflection of your ability/how well you studied rather than a reflection of UofT’s deflation. I’m not sure if a “community college” course is a great comparison especially if that “community college” is in Canada.</p>

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<p>I’m in Vancouver and doing the same courses for 1st year Sciences that are done at UBC.</p>

<p>I could only assume because I have no first hand experience, nor know anyone at UToronto. Could only base it on what I’ve ‘heard’, that’s why I’m asking here.</p>

<p>So UToronto seems to be similar to what my roomates have said about UBC, there are a lot of students who have no interest and the 1st year dropout rate is huge.</p>

<p>Not that it matters, but how do these people get into a top school like UToronto? I guess the Canadian top schools don’t take in the brightest of students like they do in the US.</p>

<p>I’m done with my first semester, have a GPA of 3.9/4.3 (B+ in Philosophy knocked it down, but I’m taking only Science courses next semester so it’ll go up). I think one should be fine as long as you pay attention in class, and most importantly have a genuine keen interest to explore the topics on your own - you have to read as much as you can about what the course covers so that you know the material in and out. That’s how I get by. I’m doing science because I have a passion for it. Very much unlike the vast majority of students, and I guess that’s why they get mediocre grades</p>

<p>“If classes do go beyond the “expected” C average, professors (usually the associate ones) make it their mission to make the final exam much more challenging because”</p>

<p>Haha, I like that actually because I hate it when I study x hours for a test and it all goes to waste because I could have not studied at all and got the same score.</p>

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<p>kushalck, one issue you may have with a transfer is how many of your credits from a ‘community college’ that U of T will accept. They are notoriously picky with that, even with U of T students who go abroad for a semester. That may be something you can investigate with U of T before you’re at the point of applying for a transfer.</p>

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<p>You’ll be fine. If you have the intellectual curiosity for the subject, you’ll succeed wherever you go. I’ve never met anyone at UofT who felt the professor was being unfair, it’s always a case of “I should have studied more…” or “looking back, I should have gotten an A” etc. Some students just can’t find/care to manage their time wisely to succeed in the required courses. </p>

<p>Most Canadian schools aren’t that selective, a research dominant school like UofT probably allows in more students than it needs to because they need the money to fuel the costs of keeping up with other top research institutions.</p>

<p>To be quite honest, I’m throughly impressed with their graduate program.</p>

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<p>Ah, that makes sense now. Their fees are lower than the top Americans schools (less than $30K as opposed to $50K… oh wait even LOWER for Canadian citizens and permanent residents), they’re publically funded, and they just generally have a lot less money than the American schools so they’re just going to squeeze it out from the people who have money but don’t want to learn. This would also explain why it’s easier for International students to transfer into UBC than for residents.</p>

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<p>Yup also a huge difference between their undergraduate programs and their graduate programs. Although large public institutions like McGill, UofT and UBC may offer more opportunities than other universities, smaller universities like Queen’s or Western may provide a much better experience in working with professors or encountering more competent teachers on the undergraduate level. I know at UBC, the “older” faculty is basically apathetic in dealing with undergraduate students and are quite condescending. </p>

<p>Even at the top American institutes, marque professors in graduate programs also hold undergraduate classes and are much more open than the marque educators in Canadian graduate programs.</p>

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<p>WTH? Do you just make this stuff up? What does it mean ‘more students than it needs?’. Tuition makes up about 30% of the cost of educating a student with the provincial govt picking up the rest. The province determines the number of seats it will fund for each university. Hard to see how admitting MORE students is somehow cost effective. </p>

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<p>And the basis for this judgment comes from where? While it is quite true that in smaller, less research intensive universities (especially in the US LACs), there is more focus on teaching quality and more availability of professors due to smaller class sizes, this kind of small vs. large distinction is non-existent in the Canadian schools you list. All of them are equally research intensive and professors are teaching similar loads with similar size classes. </p>

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<p>Nope, more nonsense. In fact the reverse is true, in part because the teaching loads at top US schools (typically private) are less than top Canadian schools. Where do you get this stuff!?</p>

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<p>U of T provides course averages beside each grade recorded on your final transcript. I wouldn’t worry about it.</p>

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<p>Admitting more students is cost effective. Cornell’s endowment took a huge hit in 2008. Subsequently, they increased the class size for the incoming class in 2009. It’s really not counter intuitive as many resources are shared between students anyway, at little cost to the university.</p>

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<p>fallenmerc, it’s counterintuitive when you’re discussing Canadian universities which are all public institutions. Cornell is a private university and isn’t depending on government funding, nor is it controlled as to the number of students it may enroll.</p>

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<p>O wait… does that mean the Canadian government can control how many students UofT is allowed to enroll? If that’s the case I didn’t know that. Coolz.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.cou.on.ca/issues-resources/key-issues/pdfs/framework-for-planning-and-funding-of-enrolment---.aspx[/url]”>http://www.cou.on.ca/issues-resources/key-issues/pdfs/framework-for-planning-and-funding-of-enrolment---.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Lol… technically the government does NOT have direct control over how many students can enroll in a particular university in Canada. In fact, like I mentioned, accessibility grants and the revenue from tuition IS the main method to increase funding. The only caveat is unsustainable growth (not enough space, dorms, professors, etc), and the uncertainty of funding if they overshoot enrolment completely (“funded growth” is negotiated through “targets” above or below the “baseline enrolment”).</p>

<p>So… Canadian universities depend on government funding but the government isn’t directly capping enrolment. Unless there’s some other control mechanism, I still feel that my comments are valid. Not saying that Canadian universities DO take on students randomly for funding, but just saying that it is a possibility. Not sure where starbright’s 70% government funding per student is coming from though…</p>